49: How to Eat for Optimal Metabolic Health | Jen Nolan, BS, MS, ONC ​

Poor metabolic health is the largest underlying cause of early death worldwide, contributing to a multitude of illnesses such as Alzheimer’s, heart disease, cancer, obesity, and even some cases of infertility and depression. Sadly, many people are walking around without even knowing they need to address their metabolic health. Today I'm joined by Jen Nolan, the lead oncology nutrition consultant of Remission Nutrition, as we discuss why metabolic health is so important and ways that we can start improving it immediately at home.   

Suggested Resources:

• Remission Nutrition
• Prevalence of Optimal Metabolic Health in American Adults
• Intermittent Fasting & Metabolic Health
• Metabolically healthy obesity: facts and fantasies
• Fast Like a Girl by Dr. Mindy Pelz
• Insight Timer App
• Veri Continuous Glucose Monitor

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Transcript

*Unedited Trancript*
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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] Jen, welcome back for another take two. As I was saying, you are the first guest to be on a second time. Um, it's truly an honor. You're such a wealth of information. I love our conversations. I could talk with you for hours and I'm really excited to dive into metabolic health today with you.

Jen Nolan: Me too. Thanks for having me. And I love to be back on your show. It's amazing. So thank you. 

Jacqueline: You're very sweet. So Jen, let's start off with the basics because I feel like again, so many people are throwing this term metabolic health around. Um, there's a lot of confusion around it and I just want to kind of level set for everyone, myself included.

But, um, starting with the foundational question, What do we mean when we say metabolic health and why is it so important? 

Jen Nolan: Yeah I think um What I wanted to highlight a little bit was that term basics and starting with the basics because I feel like [00:01:00] there is a lot of confusion out there and so many are people are trying To like do all this biohacking and they're taking all these supplements and they're jumping on one diet extreme diet or the next extreme diet And that just, I feel like we're kind of missing the point a little bit.

I feel like basic metabolic health is all about balance and it's about having really like balanced blood sugar, balanced energy. balanced stress. We're all going to have stress, but hopefully it's not super high or super low. Same thing with blood sugar. Um, you know, we need inflammation, right?

Inflammation is an important part of the body's process, but we don't want to be always inflamed. If we're always inflamed, the body can't deal with some other things that might come up where it needs to attend to, right? Like healing. An injury or something like that. So I really feel like metabolic, you know, health means we are balanced and hopefully we aren't.

You know, walking around and I know [00:02:00] we'll talk about it, but with metabolic syndrome, um, you know, we're, we're having to reach for snacks and coffee in the afternoon or take a nap, things like that, that doesn't tell me somebody has metabolic health. So hopefully that kind of sets the stage a little bit.

Jacqueline: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you hit the nail on the head too. I feel like there are certain quote unquote symptoms, right? By which we can measure if we're metabolically flexible, meaning do we get hangry pretty often? Do we do, do we have to take naps? Right. Frequently. But aside from those observable things, what are some of the best ways to actually evaluate our metabolic health from like a biomarker perspective?

Jen Nolan: Yeah, if we're talking about biomarkers, we can look at blood work, lab work. We can look at some pretty simple lab work too, to see if there's a lot of inflammation in the system. So that can be really helpful. So one marker that we look at often, especially in the sort of cancer space is, [00:03:00] um, HSCRP or high sensitive C reactive protein.

And that's a marker of, you know, that can show inflammation. We also there's several different markers from a blood sugar perspective, metabolic perspective. I also, of course, love to look at things like fasting glucose. Um, I looked, I love to see fasting insulin and it's not very common that somebody tests for that you have to.

I was 

Jacqueline: just going to say that's a rare one to actually find as part of a regular panel. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, but it's awesome. It's really great to know and looking at hemoglobin A1c and hemoglobin A1c is kind of that measure of blood sugar over a 3 month period. It uses hemoglobin, um, to track that marker. So that's another one.

There are multiple numbers to markers. There's also a lot of people walking around with, you know, those continuous glucose monitors on their arm. Um, the CGM, you'll [00:04:00] hear people talk about, and that can show us not only our fasting blood sugar, but it can show us what's happening post eating. Um, it also tracks in the middle of the night.

So if somebody dropping super duper low, um, so it's really great because there's all these tools out there, um, to track and see what your metabolic health is doing, but also, you know, there's a biometric around, you know, looking at, and I forget the ratio, but when you look at mid body weight, In a lot of people.

So what is their weight? Waste circumference? And I believe it's over 40 for men, 40 inches. Um, and that's a really big sign of being not so metabolically healthy, right? So I think that there's a lot, there's a lot of markers out there. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, absolutely. And I, I read a recent stat that said about 93.2% of Americans are in poor metabolic health, meaning they have some degree of insulin resistance and are somewhere on the spectrum from pre-diabetes [00:05:00] to type two diabetes.

Would you say that's. An over exaggeration, or would you say that's probably pretty accurate? 

Jen Nolan: I don't know. I mean, I was just recently on a little getaway. This kind of, it's this beautiful place in Santa Fe, and I got to go for a few days. It was glorious. And what I noticed Good for 

Jacqueline: you, Jen. 

Jen Nolan: Thank you. Yeah, it was really great.

Um, but what I noticed was all of the people that were walking around that were very, very heavy and it was at a health spa kind of a place and I was pretty blown away. So that percentage felt about right. I actually left there saying that. Gosh, I feel like 90 percent of those people were likely.

metabolically not healthy. It's not fair and that's not judging. But just looking at again, one of those markers being that waist circumference. And I think it's great that we're in a time when I'm hoping more and more people are not so body image oriented. 

Jacqueline: And 

Jen Nolan: I [00:06:00] really want people to be metabolically healthy.

And we'll talk about that too. Because if people are not metabolically healthy, What does that mean for their overall health? And these were a lot of younger people, you know, they were in their thirties. And that's what my guess was anyway, as I was observing, and it really was kind of disturbing to me.

And I just feel like, you know, the other thing I want to say about that is that's a visual marker and there are people out there that are also visually, they might look very, um, Fit thin, so they might be thin on the outside and maybe fat on the inside, and that is also can be dangerous. So that's when we really do want to be watching our markers, our metabolic health markers, and knowing what our blood sugar is doing.

I see it a lot in elite athletes as well. Or they're on that blood sugar rollercoaster, and they're just depending in order for them to do their sport. They are just, you know, carving up nonstop, right? [00:07:00] I mean, I used to do it as well as a, as a biker, you know, and I would be constantly like feed, feed, feed, feed, feed with glucose.

So it can really trash our metabolic health and we don't 

Jacqueline: well, and that's the irony too, because I feel like again, I mean, things are always changing in the health space, right? And at one point in time, I think the ideology was that you needed to eat very frequently in order to maintain a fast metabolism, right?

It was like, eat every few hours, eat snacks, eat, and that's the worst thing you could do, right? And could you explain why? That's probably not the best thing. If you're looking for metabolic flexibility. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, I would say for the overall public general public eating frequently like that is not something that is all that smart and I'll explain why.

And I also want to make sure that we're always know their nuanced circumstances where somebody might need to eat more frequently. And that is okay. So I don't want anybody to hear any of this is bad or good. It's very individualized. [00:08:00] So when we're trying to achieve metabolic flexibility, if we're feeding, I call it feeding, but if we're eating every couple of hours, because that's what we were told, because that's going to keep the metabolic fire going, then we are, it can be really harming ourselves in a certain way.

And so we're. A roller coaster, a blood sugar roller coaster means that you are on this high and low and it's very extreme goes high comes crashing down. And when we are in a really low blood sugar or lower, like, we get the high we get the low. What do we want when we're down? More carbohydrate or glucose sugar, because that's going to bring us up again.

And it's going to make us feel better. You see it a lot with kids. And I can't remember if I use this example before, but if you go to like a kid's birthday party and they come in, they're pretty, they're pretty good, and then they sort of start to get tired and they sort of crash and then it's time to eat and then they're having, you know, the cake, they get [00:09:00] super hyper and then by the end of a kid's birthday party, most of the kids are crying.

And it's like, okay, it's time to go there on the floor to drag them out of there. So that's one of those examples of that blood sugar roller coaster, right? And so what we don't want is that, and that can create a lot, that high and low can create a lot of oxidative stress in the system slash inflammation.

And what is a big time underlying cause of disease? inflammation. So we're trying to really, again, remember balance. We want to balance, we want to balance our energy throughout the day and we want to balance our inflammation. So we're not always inflamed our blood sugar, our energy. So if we can go from throughout the day with a balanced bit of energy, that's way better than being on that energy rollercoaster where you're like, uh, I'm dragging myself off the floor.

Now I need to go and get a coffee or some sweet treat. So eating every day does or every couple of hours. That's not [00:10:00] sort of the nutrition advice that we're hearing now, which is great. It's almost like we're going back into that old school kind of nutrition where it's, you know, three balanced meals a day.

For some people, it might be two meals a day, depending, you know, and, and. I think that's really important to remember. They have to be balanced meals as well. So you're not eating just carbohydrate at a meal because that's going to also throw us off. Right. And it doesn't mean nobody can ever snack. It just means that we don't have to eat all the time.

We hopefully don't have to eat before we go to bed. And I have so many people that tell me that, like, I need some food or I can't fall asleep or I wake up in the middle of the night or I wake up first thing in the morning. And I need food. That is a pretty decent sign of metabolic inflexibility. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, it's so, it's so true.

And honestly to Jen, I feel like I've just started to become more aware of this within the past five years. Um, specifically when [00:11:00] CGMs became like all the rage and everyone had one. So I hopped on that train, I got one and it was so interesting for me to see. Certain things that really, really spiked my, my blood sugar that I otherwise would never have thought and then that again teaches you how to food pair, right?

Never have carbs by themselves. Always pair it with a fatter protein. Just little hacks like that. And you do notice a change, right? And I think there were so many times where. I attributed like that afternoon slump to, you know, this is how it is. Everyone experiences it just the afternoon slump. Right. But no, look at what you ate for lunch, you know, was there enough protein and fat in that or was it more carb heavy?

Um, so it's really interesting. And I am curious to Jen, what are your thoughts on eating for your cycle? So there's also a lot of interesting literature around that specifically when it comes to like, The actual nutrition component, and then also when it comes to fasting, so I like to fast, but I also recognize there are certain times of your [00:12:00] cycle where you shouldn't be fasting, right?

Like your luteal phase, avoid fasting, progesterone is very sensitive, but your menstrual phase, your follicular phase, like you can go hardcore. So what are your thoughts on that? 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, I totally agree with what you just said, and I love the work of Dr. Middy Pells. Um, I think, you know, watch, like, her book, Fast Like a Girl, where Watching some of her YouTube videos and things.

She really explains it well on that timing. And I also feel like we don't want to just jump in and go, this is what I'm doing all the time. Now 

Jacqueline: we 

Jen Nolan: do what works for us and it it's not for every single person. We're all different. Um, and I also feel like anytime we're doing something like that, where we're, I don't know if you want to call it biohacking or just doing more lifestyle change.

We also expect this. We want people to, we want things to change right away. We're kind of impatient, right? So I think that things like that, that if it's [00:13:00] lifestyle or nutrition, it takes time. So give it a chance, do it for a while. See if it helps. see if it impacts us. But I love that. Um, and I happen to be outside of my cycle.

Ho hum. But it's really interesting because it's a totally different, right? So my fasting might look a little bit different than that. I can fast a little bit differently now because I'm not sure we all still cycle, but I don't have to be doing the same thing as maybe somebody like you that's still cycling in that fasting realm.

So it's pretty cool. Does change. We're not anything we do. I always tell people this. It's not set in stone. So just try things. Um, if somebody is in a cancering place, right? So they have cancer, they're undergoing treatment. Sometimes we, not that we ignore that idea around fasting, but we might do it. We just might have to go, Oh, let's still try to fast for this time period.

Even though, 

Jacqueline: you know, it. 

Jen Nolan: [00:14:00] The timing is maybe not exactly perfect with your hormones, if that makes sense. So everybody's different, but yes, I love, I love fasting for cycles. Um, and, and I like to sometimes around like the moon cycle. So there's a lot of people that aren't necessarily cycling women, but they can fast around the moon and that can be kind of neat too.

Jacqueline: Yeah. So interesting. I know, again, that's like a whole area that I just started to get. Interested in in the past. I don't know, five years or so, but so much there and it is about experimenting with your body, right? And even for me to like, I find that whenever I have, if I have to be very sharp for something, podcast interview, a presentation at work, I like to be in a fasted state, you know, so that's why I'll try to schedule interviews and presentations like in the morning time.

And then I'll have maybe like a larger lunch than usual. Yeah, it's truly based on an individual and their schedule. But, um, Yeah. Going back 

Jen Nolan: quickly, Jacqueline just real quick about that. The other sign of sort of metabolic flexibility [00:15:00] versus not is, are you able to go without food and feel good? Are you feeling more sharp?

Are you feeling like junk? So that's also a really good tell in terms of, am I, Metabolically flexible. Can I fast or am I constantly needing to eat now before our cycle? Right. We kind of are building up and that is a time when, you know, we might have cravings, we might be hungry or so during that time, listening in intuitively and going, you know, this is a time when I want to eat more, want to nourish my body more, so think about that too.

Like, I don't know if you can't go a couple of hours without food, what We have some work to do, and we will get there. You're not gonna all of a sudden start doing this big time fast or, you know, we ease into it if we have that luxury, 

Jacqueline: right? Now that makes complete sense. I'm going back to your observation, Jen, of the 30 year olds in the younger generation who seemed to be a bit overweight at your recent excursion.

[00:16:00] Um, What do you think the root cause of that is? So certainly, I mean, nutrition is at the heart, but are there any other components like lifestyle factors that can lead to metabolic inflexibility? 

Jen Nolan: Yeah. I mean, if I were to guess there's a lot of, um, inactivity. So a lot of people are sedentary and they're not, um, and I'm just, these are general.

So this is not coming from again, a judgmental place at all. It's part of our lifestyle that we are living in. Um, you know, we're driving a long ways. Maybe to get to work. We're sitting at desks. We're not moving our bodies. We're probably eating a fair amount of processed food and sugar. We're sitting on phones, you know, social media, all the things.

I think it's all a combination. Maybe our, our bodies are so stressed because maybe we're not sleeping in a stressed state, our metabolism slows down. So we can't, it's harder to lose weight. I also think that there is [00:17:00] something about what's happening right now where people are cool with it. Well, that's great.

And I'm all about that. And I want people to be healthy and I want them to live healthy lives. So their joints feel good. And so they can continue to, you know, be around and hopefully be disease free. So there is an element of prevention that I would love for people to know, and maybe there's an education piece to that.

People aren't, they don't know. 

Jacqueline: Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. Well, see, that's why I love having conversations like these, because there are a lot of people who don't know. Right. And they're just not aware. But once they hear, you know, It opens their eyes to a lot of things in terms of how they're feeling, maybe chronic illnesses they've been dealing with, and really prompts them to change.

Um, but going back to nutrition, which we know really is the heart, what are some key dietary strategies? for improving our metabolic health? 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, well, I think one of the biggest things we can do is not eat at night. [00:18:00] So, there are so many people, again, that I work with that are very, um, sort of attached to their evening snack, their evening popcorn, whatever it is, later on they get munchy, they want to sit and watch TV, wind down, and they're eating, and what that can do is really disrupt sleep, it can disrupt hormone balance, it can It can perpetuate that blood sugar roller coaster, and it's not so good for us.

And so if we can start there by not eating at night, so now we've kind of closed out that sort of eating window a little bit like we talk about right with intermittent fasting. So if somebody gets up in the morning. Let's say this. Let's say somebody finishes eating dinner at 7pm and now they go to bed at 10pm.

So they've got a decent 3 hour window between dinner and bedtime. That's awesome. Would you 

Jacqueline: say that's a good window too Jen? Like 3 4 hours? Yes, 

Jen Nolan: 3 4 hours is fabulous. There's a lot of research that shows that an early dinner time does all kinds of things for our [00:19:00] health, whether it's metabolic health or all of it.

Right. Um, so three to four hours before bed. And yeah, so I like the six or seven. I think that paying attention to, to the seasons is really important. So in the wintertime, it's dark by six, if we can eat during daylight, that's a really lovely way to be if we can. Right. So think about that. So at 7 PM, you stop eating and you go until the next morning.

Right. And that might take people a little bit. So if somebody's like, you know what, I really have to eat something and they've got it in their head. I'm like, okay, then at night eat some protein or fat, please don't eat fruit or, you know, the, the carby things like ice cream, popcorn, things like that. Eat some protein, a couple of bites, maybe that will help them.

And then they can kind of start getting out of that habit. Cause a lot of times it is more probably psychosomatic for some people. Right. The body gets used to what we do. So then you go until if [00:20:00] you go 13 or 14 hours is usually where I start people without food. You get to sleep for most of that, right?

Now you go from dinnertime to the next day. And maybe now it's, you know, eight or 9am in the morning, right? If you stopped eating at seven. So that is a really great start. And you might land there and that might be okay. And now when you look at this eating window piece, these are the, the feeding hours, I would say, this is where our next step is to not graze throughout that window.

So you're not just nonstop snacking and you're not nonstop, you know, running through the kitchen and cruising through the cupboards or the fridge and things like that. You really want to. sit and have, and I say sit and have these balanced meals where you are not on your phone, you're not on your computer and you're being very present with your food and looking at it, having gratitude for it, tasting it, [00:21:00] smelling it.

All those things. And you look and you asked yourself, you know, about, you know, the, where's my carbohydrate in this meal? Hopefully it's a lot of veggies. Where's my fat? Hopefully it's a lot of olive oil, olives, avocados, things like that. And where's my protein. And that's really, really important to see that balanced meal where the majority of the plate is looking like a lot of beautiful, colorful plants, 

Jacqueline: you know, 

Jen Nolan: and then you go, hopefully you go to lunchtime.

And now you go to dinner. So you've, you don't have to always be snacking every couple of hours. So did I answer that question? You did. No, you hit 

Jacqueline: the nail. You hit the nail on the head, Jen. And two, two points. To that, so I think, first of all, going back to eating before bed, you, you hit, I mean, there's so many, there's so much research out there that shows that when you do eat before bed, right?

Your digestive system is on. It has to digest the food. So that basically [00:22:00] recruits energy that your body could be using elsewhere that you need to renew yourselves at night. That's putting towards digestion, so it's taking that energy and you don't want to lose that energy, right? So that's one reason and then secondly to yeah You don't want to necessarily be having blood sugar spikes at night while you're sleeping and interestingly, too I always like to experiment right?

So I got an aura ring It was my Christmas gift to myself a few months ago. Actually not a few months ago almost half a year ago Um, it's not crazy. But um, yeah I, I did have a night where I was snacking, and I was just stressed out, and I often find that whenever I'm stressed, right, that's when the fridge opens and the food comes out, as with most people, but it was really interesting because the next morning on my Oura Ring, it showed how my sleep was compromised, and I was like, this, like, what happened?

Like, I, I went to bed on time, and I really looked at it, and it said, you know, cause it, like, Things that could contribute to sleep disruption late night snacking. And I was like, Oh, that was me. So it's just [00:23:00] interesting to actually like, see with all of these, you know, Monitors that we have and and to actually see what's going on inside our bodies in response to our habits.

And I think that is one of the really key ways that you could initiate change, at least for myself. Um, so I love that. 

Jen Nolan: And I think too, you also probably recognized using that continuous glucose monitor, that it's not just about food. And I think that's really important for us to remember because people will be like, My blood sugar is all over the place and I'm eating this quote unquote perfect diet.

Right? Yeah. Um, and I'm not snacking and I'm not doing this and what's going on. Well, I mean, stress has a huge play in our blood sugar. So here you are. You're like, I'm stressed. I'm stress eating. And. I noticed my, you know, sleep was poor. Your blood sugar was probably wonky. So I think that's a really important thing to remember that when we are stressed out, you know, there's a cortisol push and that in turn, [00:24:00] you know, it's kind of a signal right to the body that we're, they're stressed, we're in trouble.

So we might need some glucose. So the body does that for us. It's like, here you go, but we might not actually need it. And so, um, that can create again, that blood sugar rollercoaster without even eating. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, exactly. Anyway, I shared with you several months ago that my mom was kind of in that situation where she was eating, quote unquote, perfect clean diet and her glucose was still elevated.

And we were like, what is going on here? But you do have to look at lifestyle factors and stress. And I think too, it's funny when I had my CGM and, um, there were times where, again, I'd be in a fasted state, but I'd be talking to someone or having a podcast interview and I'd look back and I'd see these massive spikes and I was like, what was going on?

And then I realized. I was excited, right? I was just like in a state. I was in a flow state. I was talking with someone I loved, but that could cause a spike too, right? So not all spikes are bad. Sauna, sauna use can cause spikes. And I think too, [00:25:00] one thing I kind of got hung up on for a little bit that I, I shared with, with you guys.

My listeners and followers is that even if you do have a spike, the goal is to not not have any spikes, right? That's just a spike is a natural response to to food that we're going to eat. It's just ensuring that the spike doesn't go super, super high. So if someone has, you know, some blueberries with yogurt and their spike is probably higher than if they didn't have blueberries.

It doesn't mean stop eating blueberries, right? It just means to maybe add some more protein in it. And again, go by how you're feeling, right? I think that's most important. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah. And looking at your recovery too. Right. Like how is your blood sugar recovering? If you go up, if it goes up and, and that's like, that's another important thing to watch, but I think you're exactly right.

It's learning from it. And we can be very sort of fear based and kind of like black and white and super intense about it. Like, and then people will never touch a blueberry again when there's a lot of nutrients in berries and things like that. So [00:26:00] yeah, that's why when I said in the beginning, you know, I don't like to label things good or bad.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I love that. And one thing I love about you and everything you stand for is you truly are all about balance. Um, and I did have a question. I was always curious about this, Jen. So if someone completely cut out fruit from their diet, let's say, you know, they believe fruit is evil and not, I'm not going to have it.

And then let's say maybe a year goes by and they reintroduce it into their diet because they hadn't had it for, you know, X amount of time. Does that necessarily mean that their bodies are not going to respond? In a proper way to it, as if they had been eating it the entire time, like, will it cause more of an elevated spike?

Then like a normal individual who does include it in their diet, 

Jen Nolan: you know, I'm not sure about that I would imagine it's kind of individualized and I would imagine it depends again on what the rest of their body's doing Like what's there, you know, we always talk about the terrain like what's the terrain doing and [00:27:00] what are their labs looking like?

so That is an interesting concept. Are they eating a lot of other carbohydrate rich foods, or are they eating? Going from a very low carbohydrate diet without any fruit and all of a sudden they're now adding a lot of carbohydrates because it is a pretty, it can be if you're very low carbon, all of a sudden you add fruit back and it can be quite a bit, 

Jacqueline: right?

Jen Nolan: Right? Depending on the fruits. So again, not that fruit is bad. It's can, how does your body handle it? 

Jacqueline: Right? 

Jen Nolan: Um, what are our goals? You know, if we're talking about people kind of in the prevention space where we're just, we're wanting to like live our life and be disease free and be super healthy and we're on this path of wellness, great.

If we're working with somebody who has some, a lot of imbalances, pre-diabetes or diabetes or um, cancer or other inflammatory disease. You know, we're pretty careful. So I don't, I would imagine that the body might be in a [00:28:00] little bit of a state of shock if they went from having very few carbs to all of a sudden.

Jacqueline: Yeah, that makes complete sense. 

Jen Nolan: You know, choosing the fruits that really give you a lot of bang for your buck. I was just 

Jacqueline: going to ask you this. You read my mind. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, like berries are awesome because there's they have so many lovely nutrients in them. Um, you know, that's a really great option and, you know, fibrous.

So they're, they have more fiber and things like that. But, you know, I think what happens is, We, we eat, first of all, we think, Oh, these fruits are really healthy, which I'm not saying they're not, but then we go, Oh, I'm going to just have a banana. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. 

Jen Nolan: And we're going to get a pretty wicked blood sugar spike from that.

So what about a quarter of a banana with some other things like some protein and fat? How about having it maybe after your meal, rather than in the middle as a snack in the, in between meals as a snack, you know, things like that. If you're making a [00:29:00] smoothie or a shake. Then what about using avocado instead of the banana and some berries instead?

And you still get that creamy texture and you still get potassium and magnesium and fiber. And so that's what I kind of do just to look at like, you know, cause we're looking at blood sugar impact and a lot of fruit can create. 

Jacqueline: Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And again, it's, it just, it is about awareness because, I mean, again, years ago I would think that getting one of those naked juices, right, when I was little and I would go to Whole Foods with my mom, like that was the first thing I went to, that aisle, got my naked fruit juice and like it looked green and beautiful and healthy and then you turn it around and it's like, wow, there's 60 grams of sugar in here.

And again, it's not necessarily like. Cane sugar, but like sugar is still sugar and it can still cause a blood spike. Um, especially if, you know, consumed on its own. So, yeah, super, super interesting. Um, one other thing I really wanted to touch on, Jen, More so [00:30:00] for myself, but I know a lot of people struggle with this too, is emotional eating, right?

So going back to those late night snackers out there, oftentimes stress is at the heart of, you know, over consumption when it comes to, to food. So what are some strategies that you have for people when they're in the moment they're, you know, in a stressful state, they're in a weak spot and they, all they want to do is just eat.

How can they, how can they overcome those feelings? 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, I think that. There are so many and it's about, you know, having a book, a toolbox for that, you know, what are some other things that, first of all, it's recognizing it, right? It's becoming. Oh, I'm seeing this connection between me being stressed out or sad or, you know, Whatever it might be and food, and I'm looking to that food for comfort.

And oftentimes that comfort food is also probably not the beautiful salad with a ton of rainbow vegetables and protein on it. Right. [00:31:00] So making that first awareness, not to beat up on ourselves, but to see the connection and understand it, and that can be really helpful. And then having some tools in the toolbox So you be, you're aware, you're like, Oh, look at that.

Look at what I want to go do. And here are some things that I could do instead. And that can be helpful. So maybe it is run a bath and make a cup of tea. Maybe it's just make a cup of tea. Maybe it's go for a 10 minute walk. Maybe it's due a five minute meditation. I like to use insight timer because it's a free app on my phone.

And it's awesome because you can select what, how many minutes you want to do. So you can literally go in there and get a whole slew of meditations that are five minutes. And there's some that are really appropriate for like midway through the day, maybe evening. It's really cool. So that's a nice thing to do.

And it doesn't take a lot of time. Um, like I said, [00:32:00] I think I said breath work. So even if you're doing some conscious breath work, maybe you pick up Your journal, maybe you call somebody on the phone that's on your list of people you haven't connected with for a while. And so doing some other things that will bring you that emotional nourishment rather than what feels like you're emotionally nourishing yourself, but you do it.

And then you're like, And now you're just more stressed because that thing that maybe you were not wanting to necessarily eat or you eat outside of your eating window. So having some tools, the other thing too, is if your blood sugar is balanced, usually people aren't going to do that as much. Now that's not to say that like, you know, your blood sugar isn't balanced or you're not, um, metabolically flexible.

Um, however, you know, we can use some of these tools where we can help with that emotional eating. So if you're on a rollercoaster already, then the chances of you eating a bunch of [00:33:00] garbage when you're getting stressed is greater, the cravings. So if you start your morning or your day, your first meal with adequate protein, I think, and it's a, maybe a more savory morning meal that can really set us up for having a balanced day.

Try it. You know, um, and then when you are in that maybe place of emotionally wanting to eat, you might have a better way about it where you're like, Oh, nah. And you know what? If you do it, give yourself a hug and, you know, move on. It's okay. You know? And I think we're way too hard on ourselves. I really do.

Jacqueline: No, I love that. And I couldn't agree more. And it really does come down to learning by experience. And in the past, When I would intermittent fast, like all the time, and I didn't necessarily align it with my cycle. I would, I would stop eating around, I don't know, like 7 o'clock at [00:34:00] night and I'd have my first meal at 11 o'clock the next day or 1130 or 12 thinking, Oh, I've been in a fasted state.

It's great. But what I would find, Jen, is because I didn't have that protein first thing in the morning, I'd be more inclined to. Not binge eat, but like binge eat in a way on on things that, you know, weren't necessarily probably the healthiest for me around four or five o'clock that same day because my body didn't have adequate protein in the morning.

Um, so breakfast is by far my favorite meal of the day. I've changed my stance on that. Um, and again, I think my schedule now is such that. I'll wake up, I'll have breakfast by nine o'clock, I'll have lunch, and then I'll wrap up dinner, Jen, by five thirty, six o'clock, and I will not eat past, and I feel so good when I sleep at night, in the morning, I wake up well rested, I don't have that heavy feeling that you have in your stomach, you know, the morning after you eat a really, you know, heavy meal right before you go to sleep, and I think oftentimes you have to experience those [00:35:00] feelings, um, to really, you know, understand that.

That's not how you want to feel in the future and adjust your, your habits accordingly. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, that's great. And I think that's a really beautiful way. I think that what happens sometimes with like, when we're talking about kind of general public, the fear is it's summer. It's so hard to eat early. The kids are at sports, the, um, you know, we have barbecues to go to and all these things.

And that's where, you know, I kind of go, okay, what if most of the time you're able to do that. You know, where you eat earlier, is there a way to, or even ease into it where you have three days during the week that you're doing that you're eating a really early dinner, you know, I think it's what you just described in my mind is very perfect.

And, you know, if you need to eat a little later. Or, or maybe you eat first, you know, and, and then you go to watch the sports game, the kids sports or go, the [00:36:00] barbecues might be a little bit tougher. I mean, I've certainly eaten before I've gone to various events, you know, um, So, yeah, I love it. Another lifestyle thing that we didn't talk about for blood sugar balance too is doing a walk after your meal.

And so it can be really lovely, especially in the summer where you can go on a nice evening walk in that time space where you might normally be eating dinner. You know, you finish at five 30, maybe you clean up the kitchen and you go for a walk. It's gorgeous that time of night. 

Jacqueline: That's, that's my go to and my mom's as well.

And if I'm not with her, we always call after dinner while we're on our walk. And it doesn't have to be long, right? 10, 15 minutes. And walking is honestly one of the best exercises for us. I read a stat the other day, Jen, that was like, for if you walk 20 minutes a day, you can extend your life by three years, just 20 minutes a day.

Um, crazy. And I am curious too, what are your thoughts on fasted workouts? 

Jen Nolan: Oh, it's so individual. 

Jacqueline: Yeah, 

Jen Nolan: [00:37:00] I love it. So I feel way better. And then I, I like to run and I like to bike. And there are people that are like, no way. Um, so for me, I feel a lot better and I can actually go quite a long time without needing that food back in the day.

No way. So I always feel better fasted. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, I do too. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah. Or if, if I will choose to eat breakfast, I'll wait probably an hour before working out. But even then, so I don't quite feel the same, um, but going, going back to, um, carbs, there's also this whole area now, and a lot of people have been talking about this of, of carb cycling, right?

Also known as metabolic confusion. So we spoke about fasting in the context of a woman's cycle. Let's, let's use just a male, for example. What are your thoughts on extended fasts so fast that can be, [00:38:00] you know, from 24 to 72 hours. I've heard people, you know, talk about doing those like once a month. Some do it once a year.

What are your thoughts on that? 

Jen Nolan: Well, I mean, my annoying answer is always. It depends, you know, because we really look, um, at the person and what they're going through. And so it really depends. I mean, and you know, I work a lot in the cancer space. And so we utilize a lot of these longer fasts for people that are undergoing treatment, um, whether it's, radiation, chemotherapy, things like that.

And we have a lot of success with that for a number of reasons. So it really depends on what the goals are, but it also depends on, you know, this whole like test assess address that is said by Dr. Anisha Winters all the time. Like that's really important to know where people are and what their goals are.

Um, and so. You know, I don't know that everybody needs to do all these long [00:39:00] fasts and it's asking the why And you know, I said it in the beginning But if we don't have the basics taken care of and I see this all the time where people are jumping right into Doing these long fasts or whatever. It is these really extreme things and they're not even drinking enough water 

Jacqueline: You 

Jen Nolan: know, so I call it it's kind of like if you don't have the foundation built.

It's like trying to put in Walls without a foundation You know, and that just doesn't work. So I, I think that it's very bioindividualized. I think that if we do anything for too long, I like what you've said about, what did you say about confusion? Metabolic confusion. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah. That's 

Jacqueline: how I, yep. 

Jen Nolan: If we do the same thing all the time, every single day and we're super duper routine, the body just gets used to that thing.

So I do believe in switching things up. Whatever that means for you, the, the, again, fast like a girl. What Dr. Pelz talks about too, is this 5, 1, 1 fasting. And I've been [00:40:00] playing around with that where five days of the week, I'm eating a lower carbohydrate diet. I'm eating my normal sort of intermittent fasting, whatever I do that works for me.

And then one day a week, I might broaden the eating window a little bit and have a breakfast. I tend to not eat a lot of breakfast. I do a little bit about with what you used to do, but I can ask you. Yeah. Right. Make difference. And that's just what feels good to me. I also listen in and I don't say every Saturday is my day that I'm only going to eat, you know, or that I'm going to eat breakfast.

Like I try to listen into my body and what it's wanting. Um, and it's not perfect. Ever. So five days a week, I might do those, my kind of norm, right? That lower carbohydrate, I eat pretty low carb. Um, and then one day a week I broaden it out. I might increase my carbs a little bit more, like have some sweet potato or, you know, different kinds of fruit, things like that.

And then one day a week I might do say a longer fast. [00:41:00] Maybe it's 18 hours. Maybe it's a one day, one meal. Yeah. You know, so I play around with that. I also do longer fast, especially with travel. Cause I just feel better. Yeah. Um, so it really depends. And I do think that everybody's different and it's just hard.

Cause it gets confusing when we're listening to podcasts, we're reading books and we're like, Oh, I'm supposed to 

Jacqueline: eat 

Jen Nolan: after four o'clock. Well, it might not work for everybody's lifestyle. 

Jacqueline: Right. Information overwhelm. And I think the irony too is that that just creates stress, which by far, in my opinion, is worse than just, I mean, it's worse than eating like a donut.

For example, if you're consistently stressed and your body's in that fight or flight state and then just like being scared of food, um, what's that term that that it's when you're afraid to eat something. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. 

Jen Nolan: I don't know that 

Jacqueline: there's like a terminology for it. It'll it'll come to me, but it's yeah, it's basically when like people just become [00:42:00] fearful of food because if they go eat out and something's not 100 percent organic or there might be canola oil like it creates all this fear.

And again, recognizing that, you know, You know, you almost have the word. It's on the tip of my tongue, but like recognizing that like we probably shouldn't go out to eat every night of the week, but like when you do, you also have to live your life and you also have to like have a healthy mindset about whatever it is that you're eating because that is Really will impact again.

The nutritional value that your body absorbs and intakes from that meal. Um, I am curious to Jen. What is your, so I know you switch things up, which I love, but like today, for example, what's on your menu today for food? 

Jen Nolan: Well, you're going to like this because I am fasting right now. Um, I'm doing a little travel, so I'm doing a little bit of a fast.

So I think I'm on maybe like 30 some hours right now. Um, so I'm drinking, I am drinking some of my mushroom coffee right now and I'm having [00:43:00] electrolytes in my water and I'll drink probably some herbal tea throughout the day and a ton of water. So that's what I'm doing. I'll break my fast tomorrow. So, um, 

Jacqueline: What will you break your fast with?

Because this is very important. 

Jen Nolan: I, well, I personally feel best when I break my fast with some really high quality broth, bone broth usually, and I heat it up in a pan and I chop part of an avocado up. And I put it in a bowl and then I pour the hot broth over it. Sometimes I will also take, um, an egg and I'll do that.

And like, I like to whisk it in a bowl on the side, and then I make almost like an egg drop soup in the broth. 

Jacqueline: Ooh, that sounds so good. I 

Jen Nolan: add a ton of salt and that's kind of what I do. So then I've got the protein and the fat and some carbohydrate from the avocado, the fiber, and that is what feels right for me.

Jacqueline: So 

Jen Nolan: I can't eat like a big giant salad, you know, but yeah, that's what feels right for me. [00:44:00] So that's what I do. And, um, I'll, I'll, I'll see how I feel. I do test my blood sugar and my ketones while I'm fasting. Cause I think that's really important. I usually feel pretty, I do it. I feel like I do it frequently enough that I'm not doing as much detoxing.

And sometimes when people do like their first longer fast, I feel like often on like day two, they feel like junk and they just want to lie down. And not that I've not had that happen. Of course I have, but I'm trying to support my detox as well while I'm doing it. So like I took an Epsom salt bath good.

Um, 

Jacqueline: you 

Jen Nolan: know, there's I'll, I'll do, I have a little sauna blanket that I use sometimes. And so I try to support that and I try to have bowel movements. So I'm detoxing that way and while I'm fasting. So that's a total side note, but yeah. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. So smart. No, I love that. I know. I find that for me, the second day of fasting is always the most challenging.

Um, the [00:45:00] longest one I've ever done, I think, was 60 hours. I really, I would like to make it to 72, just, just because, just because I like to, again, experiment. But yeah, I find that the second day is the hardest. But again, to your point, I mean, hydrating with electrolytes, you can still have coffee as long as it's black.

Those are all kind of little, uh, hacks that help really get you through. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah. And everybody has a different idea of what it means to fast. Right. We can also do the, you know, like more of a fasting mimicking diet. We like to do more of a DIY. So you have fewer calories. So it's like a calorie kind of look, I don't want to say restricted, but kind of calorie restricted diet for a few days that can be really gentle for folks as they're easing into it.

There are, it's really, what is best for you, you know, and no, and you don't have to fast, you know, You have to ask, what is my why? I know that it helps me feel good, and it helps my clarity, and it just feels right for me, but not everybody, you know? [00:46:00] However, with that said, if you can't go a couple hours without food, we've got some work to do, you know?

Right. 

Jacqueline: That makes complete sense. One other thing that came to mind too, because you were talking about sweet potatoes before and I was like, I love sweet potatoes. Can you differentiate for listeners between a simple or bad carbohydrate versus a complex carbohydrate? And in that same vein, the subsequent difference between a high glycemic versus low glycemic food, because I feel like, again, nowadays there's a lot of fear mongering and there's this, you know, idea of carbs are bad.

All carbs are bad avoid carbs, but it's, it's a lot, there's a lot more to that. So can you kind of unpack that? 

Jen Nolan: Yeah. And it is, again, it's a very bio individualized approach when we're working with somebody who has cancer, we're wanting them to be very metabolically healthy. And so oftentimes we will pull back their carbs.

Quite a lot, and that is very important and can be very, very effective without fear mongering, [00:47:00] without saying bad and good, right? On certain foods or labeling certain foods as toxic or bad. I'm really careful with that language, um, because I feel like power and intention is really important here too. So for, again, if somebody is looking for just to create metabolic flexibility and be more metabolically healthy.

What we can do is, and some people can eat more carbs than others, right? We look at genetics and we look at lab work and all the things, but when we're talking about simple versus complex carbs, I like to usually think about it as how quickly does something turn to sugar in the body, right? And so if you take something like, um, candy.

And you put that in like it's all sugar, right? It's all sugar. And that is going to spike your blood sugar quite a lot. So that's going to be very high glycemic or a glycemic food. It's a very simple carb. It's going to shoot you up. If you've got somebody that is [00:48:00] diabetic and they go super low, they can drink a Coke or eat candy and they can get their blood sugar to go up if they have dropped scary low.

Right. And so that's a simple carbohydrate, something that turns to sugar quickly. Think about white foods like rice, white rice, that has been kind of processed quite a lot. And it's going to turn to sugar more quickly than probably a brown rice. It kind of depends on the person. But so if something is high glycemic food, it's going to be probably more of a simple carb.

If it's lower glycemic, it's going to have more, um, maybe fat or more fiber in it. The fiber will slow down the sugar load. That's why when we take juice in without anything else, we have stripped out anything that's going to slow that sugared load. And now you're getting like a sugar shot to the system.

If you keep the fiber in, you're going to have less of a sugar spike. It's less glycemic. Does that make sense? 

Jacqueline: [00:49:00] And so 

Jen Nolan: I like to food pair as well, because we can change the glycemic impact by having Um, some carbs, maybe it's sweet potato, right? Maybe you don't eat the sweet potato the size of your head.

Maybe you have a half or a quarter and you keep the skin on because what does that skin have? A ton of fiber. Plus it tastes really good. Now we want to fatten it up because that fat can slow the sugar load as well. And we put some coconut 

Jacqueline: oil. 

Jen Nolan: Yeah, coconut oil. I use butter or ghee. I put a bunch of salt on it.

I also have it as part of a meal. Remember those balanced meals? So I hopefully won't have as much of a blood sugar spike. So it's changing the glycemic impact of the food by pairing it with other things, keeping the fiber in the food, not also if you think about like Raw versus cooked. So we can change the impact of glycemic foods by keeping them raw.

Not that you're going to eat a raw sweet potato, but think about a carrot. [00:50:00] So you have some carrots, say it's grated carrot on your salad or chopped up carrot. Raw with the skin on organic, it's going to have less of a glycemic impact on your body than it is. If you've roasted those carrots, because that's making them more sugary, more glycemic.

Same thing with beats a little bit of Robbie with the skin. Great. Put it in the oven and roast it and make it all caramelized and sugary. Now you're going to probably get more of a blood sugar spike and you can watch that in like a CGM. Or something, right? So that's where I go. I'm like, first of all, look at the person and how is their metabolically metabolic flexibility.

Some people can have these higher glycemic foods, and some people can't. They're more sensitive until we get them balanced. Then maybe we can add it back. And so. What I want to say about glycemic, so people look at glycemic index as a number. So all the, all these foods have a certain number of glycemic index.

And if somebody [00:51:00] has a diabetes, um, diagnosis, they might look at that chart and they're like, Ooh, I can't eat that food because the index is too high, which makes sense. glycemic index again, by pairing it with other foods. And there's something called the glycemic Load, and I encourage people to look at the glycemic load more because it actually takes into account how much food you're having, how much of that food.

So, it's about volume rather than just glycemic index of the food. Does that make sense? So, if you look at glycemic index of food. A piece of white bread versus a watermelon, they might have the same glycemic index, but in order to get to the same glycemic load of one slice of bread, you might have to eat a half a watermelon.

Okay. So a load is important and I love that little fun fact. So carbs versus complex carbs, [00:52:00] you're not going to eat those foods by themselves. Anyway, so eat fiber and eat fat and eat protein. Don't eat those carbs alone and don't eat sugar processed foods if possible. Right? 

Jacqueline: Yeah. They're higher 

Jen Nolan: and inflammatory.

Does that answer? That 

Jacqueline: was a beautiful 10 explanation. I'm sure you clarified so many things for listeners. So thank you for that. I love that, Jen. And. But you mentioned before something about until we get that person back into metabolic flexibility. So how quickly can, and I know it's going to be individualized, but let's say best case scenario, someone starts implementing these, these new dietary and lifestyle changes.

How quickly can they start to see changes in their metabolic health? 

Jen Nolan: I think it depends on what we're tracking for change. I think that some people can feel better and start sleeping better and have better energy [00:53:00] Really quickly, like right away, you know, um, they can bring down their inflammation all of a sudden, people feel better.

They're like, oh, walking feels better to me now. I'm more inclined to go out for a walk because it doesn't hurt. It actually feels good. So you get those neurotransmitters that are kind of firing and making us happier and more light. Right? If we're sleeping better, everything's better, you know, and it's not that it's just a quick fix.

It takes work. It takes dedication and we don't have to be, you know, super strict about it. We can ease into it again. If we have that luxury. So, but I believe that once people honestly, if people do like a, you know, I always think about like the 21 day fixes, right? Like a 21 day sugar fix, get that added to your system for 21 days and you're going to feel so much better.

So much better, 

Jacqueline: you know, and you'll 

Jen Nolan: probably kick those cravings. So that's really huge too, when we don't want it anymore. Some people are just, they just love sweets, [00:54:00] you know, um, some people like savory better. Um, so it's always getting to know who we're working with and understanding them, but oftentimes, especially when we have sugar addiction, it's like a drug.

It's really a drug. It is. 

Jacqueline: Yeah, there's studies that have shown it lights up same parts of the brain as cocaine, just sugar. It's insanity. But I think too, when we can become addicted to the feeling of what good health actually feels like, you don't necessarily want to go back. Like if someone does offer you, I don't know, Boston cream doughnut from Dunkin Donuts, which used to be my livelihood when I was younger, I don't really find that appealing anymore because I think how my body is going to feel afterwards.

Right. So it's really. It's about changing, you know, the perspective and really viewing food as fuel, right? Rather than just something to indulge in because it makes you feel better. Um, 

Jen Nolan: well, and I think food is fuel. Food can be medicine. Food can be, [00:55:00] um, joyful too, and comfort. Um, so it's, it's, What is, what does that mean?

It doesn't mean, oh, I'm going to go to Dunkin Donuts because there's my comfort, but we start to learn about nourishing our body and our minds and our souls with these beautiful foods. And I believe that anyone can do that. And it does, you know, it's not, I'm not trying to say it's like a snap of fingers and you're there.

It takes, it takes time and it takes loving yourself and not beating up on yourself. Cause I think that's what a lot of people do. Yeah. 

Jacqueline: No, 100%. And it also doesn't have to be an all or nothing mentality. And I think when folks really start to assess like where they are in their nutrition journey and start realizing, okay, I may have to cut this one thing out, but I could substitute it with this other thing, right?

Like healthy almond flour, banana bread, like there are so many healthy, nourishing, um, Good tasting treats that we can make. Right. [00:56:00] So it's also about finding proper substitutes. I think to make that journey of, you know, kind of clearing out some old habits all the easier. So I love that, Jen. 

Jen Nolan: Well, and I love that you use the word treat.

Jacqueline, because it, I don't love the word cheat because that just means bad. That's just negative. If we're having a celebratory treat, um, that's what it's all about. And you're right about being perfect. I think there's too much of that thought. Well, it's all or nothing. And if I'm not perfect, then I'm just going to throw in the towel.

And that's not. We're looking at longevity and lifestyle and wellness, not from this extreme thing to the next extreme thing to the next extreme thing. And that's for, again, the general public that are looking for prevention and overall wellness. And then when we have people that are dealing with some sort of diagnosis, we might have to do sort of more of a therapeutic plan, um, always with the goal [00:57:00] of being able to be in that lifestyle place.

Jacqueline: Absolutely. I love that. Jen, when's your cookbook coming out? I'm serious. You need to, I will be your first customer. You need to write one because honestly, everything that you, uh, that you say that you have, even when you were just highlighting what you use to break your fast, I was like, yes, this is me.

Jen Nolan: You know, it really, I would, yes, it needs to happen. And, um, we're kind of, we're collecting some really great recipes and yeah. We share them, as you know, but I do, that could be awesome. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's done has an incredible Instagram account. I know your daughter works actively on that too. You have the best recipes.

Um, but Jen, this has been so, so wonderful again. You're such a wealth of information and I just love you and everything that you're doing in this space and you're helping so many people, but where can listeners find you? 

Jen Nolan: Yeah. So you can go to our website, which is remission nutrition. com. And [00:58:00] we have Instagram as well.

And Facebook, both are at remission nutrition. So that's how you can find us. Yes. And, um, yeah, we would love to hear from people and We've got some great information on our website, actually. So that's been really nice. Um, we have quite a few consultants on our team that do oncology nutrition consulting.

Um, Sarah just finished her training in fitness as well for specific Cancer, which is really neat. Um, we're working to, we'd love to do more in this prevention space. Um, so we don't just work with people who are going through a diagnosis or, um, of, for cancer. So we're really looking to expand into that more.

And, um, that feels really good to me, but we also have a whole section under resources, I think, and it's more like classes and, um, podcast interviews and things that more than just, um, I have done. So if anybody's interested in hearing Maria, that's a good 

Jacqueline: place. Wonderful. I will definitely include the links to all of those in the share [00:59:00] notes.

And my last question for you, Jen, you already answered this before, so you can answer it as, as you feel now, but what does being well and strong mean to you? 

Jen Nolan: I couldn't remember what I said last time. It's going 

Jacqueline: to be beautiful again. So 

Jen Nolan: what I, what it means to me right now today is balance, not perfection.

And I kind of came up with that even before, like our talk today, and it just feels so right based on all the things we've been talking about. So balance, not perfection. And there's, there's too much shaming. There's too much fear based stuff going on. And we just do the best you can small changes. Are really, really impactful for me.

I don't want ever to be perceived as I do all these things. Perfect. I don't want to be all or nothing. And so really being kind and gentle with myself, um, [01:00:00] and being in, you said the word flow earlier being in my flow. With balance is really important. And when I, like there's ways for me, I'm like, I evaluate and I'm like, Ooh, you are not in balance right now.

And that looks like various things that can be me on social media too much, or on my computer too much, where all of a sudden I'm like, Oh my gosh, I'm getting up in the morning because I've got all these things to do and I'm going right to my computer, what? 

Jacqueline: Yeah. And 

Jen Nolan: so having those boundaries around, you know, work and life and joy and Um, fitness, you know, exercise, the outdoors, I've started to read fiction and I love that.

And that is helping me. I mean, uh, it's been amazing. So I think that is what it is for me being well and strong means balance. 

Jacqueline: Yeah. That's beautiful, Jen. I love that. That just reminded me. I started, have you ever read the gap in the gain? Great book, uh, I'll, I'll text it [01:01:00] to you, but I started reading that last night and essentially it says, you know, to change your paradigm of how you measure your progress in the sense of measuring yourself against the gain versus the gap.

So, instead of where you're at now to your ideal. Measure where you started from where you're at now, and that just changed everything for me, because I think we always measure ourselves in anything we do any area of life up against this ideal we have, and you will always fall short, right? Because that's perfection.

No one can ever reach perfection. So if you really just measure it against a guy like this is where I started, and this is where I'm at now. It's empowering. It's encouraging. And it makes you, you want to keep going, right. Rather than throwing in a towel, no matter where you're at, whether you're at one step or 10 steps ahead.

So, 

Jen Nolan: yeah, I love that. That's really great. I'll read that. Not at night because it's not fiction 

Jacqueline: in the morning. 

Jen Nolan: I'm reading the women right now. 

Jacqueline: Ooh, I love that. Yeah, [01:02:00] I need to get back into fiction. I mean, summer months are nearing, so that's a call for fiction. Well, Jen, this has been so much fun as always.

Thank you so much for your time. I'm super excited to share this, and I'm excited for round three because there's always so much to discuss with you, so we'll just have to keep going. 

Jen Nolan: Thank you. Have a good rest of your day. Thanks, Jen.