51: Healing Cancer From the Inside Out | Dr. Katie Deming, MD

Today I’m joined by Dr. Katie Deming, MD, also known as the “conscious oncologist.” Dr. Deming is a radiation oncologist, inventor, and TEDx speaker who is transcending the boundaries of conventional and integrative medicine to evolve the current paradigm of disease prevention, treatment, and healing. She blends conventional medicine with holistic practices and ancient wisdom to address the hidden roots of disease and activate the body's innate capability to heal. In our conversation today, Dr. Deming and I discuss holistic methods of healing, the mind-body connection, and the transformative power of integrative oncology, as well as talking to and supporting patients through cancer diagnoses, Veda Austin’s work on water research, and the power of the mind in fighting disease.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Dr. Deming’s background and journey beyond conventional oncology
• Genetics vs. environmental factors of cancer 
• The role of emotional trauma in cancer and illness
• The healing power of structured water
• How to talk to someone with cancer

Suggested Resources:

• Dr. Deming’s website
• “How To Talk To Someone With Cancer” – TEDx Talk
• Born to Heal podcast with Dr. Katie Deming on Apple and Spotify
• Follow Dr. Deming on Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube
• Register for a free workshop with Dr. Deming
• Veda Austin’s living water photography

This episode is proudly sponsored by Purity Woods.

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Transcript

*Unedited Transcript*
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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] Dr. Deming, I first heard about you on Chris Kresser's podcast. And I dove into your TED talk. I dove into, you know, your Instagram, your website.

And I right away, I was like, I have to have her on the show because lot of what you stand for is what I've been a Proponent of for, for so long and I'm just really excited to share your research. , especially since, you know, you're one of the folks that came from a more conventional background, um to now not so conventional.

And quite honestly, those are the stories I love to share the most because you've seen both sides.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Jacqueline: Well, Dr. Deming, so to, to kick things off, I, I love if we could start with you sharing a bit more about your background and what. I guess initially piqued your interest in the field of oncology, and then your subsequent journey from, again, that more conventional approach to a more holistic view for healing when it came to, to cancer patients.

Dr. Katie Deming: Sure. So my background [00:01:00] is that I was a radiation oncologist. I practiced as a radiation oncologist and healthcare leader. So basically I designed and led large scale cancer programs. So end to end cancer care from screening and prevention through diagnosis treatment into survivorship or end of life. And had done that for 20 years and actually in 2020, had a near death like experience, not quite a near death experience, something different that actually happens to healthcare professions, professionals.

And so I had a shared death experience in the fall of 2020. And it fundamentally just changed me. Like I knew. I was frustrated with Western oncology before that. Like I had this sense, like, why are people getting sicker? Why are younger and younger people getting cancer? Why are the people walking in our doors like less and less healthy?

Every year it seemed like that. [00:02:00] But I couldn't put my finger on it. I was like, well, I don't know. This is what, this is what we do. And, and, and I just thought like, I must, maybe something's wrong with me that I'm feeling like there's a problem here. And then after the shared death experience, I basically knew that what we were doing in Western medicine was not how the body healed and it was not true healing.

And I knew that I had to leave and that experience was quite challenging for me because obviously I had my whole life built up around this career. I trained until I was 32 years old because you know, these specialties require a lot of training. So I didn't have my first job until I was 32. And I had a family and my husband wasn't supportive of this idea of leaving Western Medicine because I knew I needed to leave, but I didn't know what I was supposed to do.

And so there was this, I just said, I was like, I need to leave and I need to take time off. And he just didn't understand it. So [00:03:00] ultimately. There were a lot of transitions that needed to happen in order for me to leave Western Medicine, including getting a divorce and selling my house and, you know, getting rid of all the things that that lifestyle that I had from having this lucrative career to support, I needed to let go of all of that.

And then I took a year. A little over a year off. I was thinking maybe I would take like three to six months and then I would know what I was supposed to do. But when I stopped, I realized I was exhausted because we in Western medicine don't take care of, we don't learn how to take care of ourselves as doctors because we The system that we're taught into doesn't teach about the importance of caring for your body and being gentle with yourself and giving yourself the things that you need.

You're taught actually to ignore your needs. And so I exactly, exactly. And like for example, [00:04:00] I've had, I've three children. I had two of my children during residency and And my second pregnancy, the rules of residency changed or something during the thing and, um, they basically only gave me a week off after having a baby.

So I went back to work a week later. So it's just an example of how twisted and messed up the system is. Now I'm like, I would never allow that to happen. But at the time I was too young and just didn't know enough to stand up for myself. But basically I needed time off to rest, to heal myself. And, um, my mentor always says you can't give to other people what you don't have yourself.

And I realized like I needed to heal myself and really feel whole myself before I had anything to give. And so then I started. In the fall of 2023. So just like seven months ago, I started an integrative practice that I call conscious oncology. And it's a little bit different than [00:05:00] maybe a standard integrative practice, but my fundamental belief is that true healing comes from higher levels of consciousness and that there are things that you can do to help someone get clean and clear enough.

to awaken to that level of consciousness that naturally heals her body. And so in my practice, I teach people how to clean out their body with their diet, with their water, with the physical practices that they do like grounding and sunlight and sauna and detoxing, and also emotional work, mental work, and spiritual work.

But the goal of all of those Now I'm getting clear to explain this to people that those six pillars that I teach, not any one of those things is like going to cure cancer, but what it's going to do is it's going to get you cleaned out and lined up so that you're awakening to your own [00:06:00] innate ability to heal.

Jacqueline: Yeah. That's, that's very fascinating. . I had a Dr. Ben Rall on the show. I want to say two or three months ago. I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work. Um, he has a podcast called Design to Heal and essentially he is a big advocate of just that, that God created our bodies with the innate.

Ability to heal, right? And it's just a matter of are we creating the right environment and giving it the right things for it to do just that? And even to, I mean, Kelly Turner has done some incredible work, radical remission. I'm sure you're familiar with her when, you know, and for listeners, she essentially just.

traveled and observed many consistent themes in cancer patients who experienced cases of radical remission. And I think it's really interesting that a major consistent theme in her work was emotional healing, right? And the power of forgiveness and letting go. And you've obviously seen so many different patients, Dr.

Deming, I'm sure in your practice. I am curious, what are some of the themes that you've seen in [00:07:00] people who go on to develop chronic illnesses such as cancer? Like, is it people who are less resilient to stress and internal emotions?

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah. Well, I think that you can look at the statistics to see that something is not quite right with the way that we're living and that it's less about, I think, specific people not having the resilience or the coping mechanisms, but more about the lifestyle that is, um, Encouraged in modern industrialized society that we are living out of balance because today the statistics are that one and two like One in every two men will get cancer in their lifetime and one in every three women.

And if you look back a hundred years ago, that was, cancer was rare. And then if you look at societies that had not been influenced at all by Western [00:08:00] influences, so uh, traditional communities that lived off the land. Cancer just didn't exist in those societies. So something obviously has shifted in the way that we live.

And I think that it's not just one thing. I think it's the combination of the way that we're living That is increasing inflammation in our body, increasing toxicities and toxicities can be physical toxicities like in our food. So the glyphosate in the soil, it can be in the products that we're using on our skin, in our household.

We're basically building up toxins. It could be emotional toxins. So. Turn on the news and you'll see there's nothing but fear and anger projected at us and all of these things. And also mind toxins, you know, thoughts that we're not powerful and that we're destined to get sick and all of these things. I think that it's all of these toxins together.

And [00:09:00] for me, It's like finding that balance of, um, nourishing our bodies and souls and minds with the things that fill us up that are truly nourishing and then detoxifying the things that are not good for us. And emotions are definitely part of that. But I think that. This is cancer is not caused by one thing.

Cancer is a combination of factors that basically diminish our own body's ability to support a healthy immune system. right? So we're getting diminished and we're under chronic stress. We're not eating the right foods. We're not moving our bodies enough. We're not getting out in the sunlight. We're not connecting with the earth.

All of those things create an environment where our body is not able to fight off illness in the way that it would be if we were getting all the right inputs, right? So then if something happens like an emotional trauma, We don't [00:10:00] have that same resilience, not because we're not resilient, but just because the lifestyle is not giving us the inputs that our bodies are designed for.

So for me, I really believe that it's multifactorial and I think there are definitely things that predispose us to getting sick with illnesses like cancer. And you just mentioned emotional trauma and emotional, um, kind of issues is a big one. I love that you brought up Kelly Turner's work with the radical remissions, because this was one of the things when I took that year off and I started researching, you know, what does make the body well, because I, I was taught in medical school and in residency, everything about what goes wrong in the body.

Like we are taught everything about the pathology, but what I wanted to know is why was I never taught? Like what actually makes someone really healthy? Like, why are we not taught as? studying those people. And so what I found when I was [00:11:00] looking at emotional, um, trauma related to illness was that in the ACE study, so the ACE study is a very large study that followed children into adulthood and it counted the number of adverse childhood events, which are basically traumatic events.

And basically they calculated an ACE score. ACE is adverse childhood events. And basically they would give you like a number. And if you just had one traumatic event, your score would be one. But if it was multiple, you'd have, you know, higher score and these different events are, you know, uh, it could be physical abuse, it could be sexual abuse, could be a parent with addiction.

It could be divorce of a parents. There's a lot of things that fall under there. But what they found was the higher the ACE score. The higher incidence of illness later in life from diabetes to cardiovascular disease to cancer. And this to me was [00:12:00] just eye opening. I had never been taught that in medical school or my training anything about this study.

And it's a very big study. study. So that was my first eye opener. And then I looked at Kelly Turner's work and Kelly Turner's work with the radical remissions looks at 10, it used to be nine factors, but now it's 10 factors that people who have radical remissions, which are basically, you know, curing illness without what we would consider adequate, conventional treatment, that those people who did this.

Actually had 10 things in common, and two of those things are related to emotions. One was dealing with emotional trauma and releasing that, and the second was helping to facilitate more positive emotions. And so Um, clearly there's this very strong tie between emotional trauma and getting sick and then releasing emotional trauma, improving emotional fluency and [00:13:00] healing.

And so for me, that was one of the first things that was like, Gosh, we don't talk about this at all in medicine. And then if you think about it, getting a diagnosis of cancer and having the treatment and the diagnosis is traumatic in itself. So then I'm thinking, oh my goodness, not only are we not talking about this major contributor, but To creation of illness and health, but then we're also contributing to it with the way that we're treating people with cancer because we're teaching them.

You basically were, you know, say it's not genetic, which most of the times cancers are not genetic. And it's only like five to 10 percent are genetic. So most of the time we say, we don't know why you got cancer. And then we're like, I don't know, just do this treatment and then go back on with your life.

And then people are like, Oh my gosh. And now they're afraid all the time, right? So it, the experience of having cancer can be traumatizing in and of itself. So it just opened my eyes [00:14:00] to the emotional component of that.

Jacqueline: Yeah, it's so interesting. And one thing that came to mind too, Dr. Deming, so everyone experiences trauma at some point in their life, right? And that could be something as extreme as, physical abuse when they're a child or something maybe not so extreme. Maybe, you know, their mom was late to pick them up from a day of school.

So I guess my question is, has there been any further research that I guess really looks into How do I say it? I guess, like, the perception of the trauma in terms of how that impacts, whether or not that person goes on to develop disease, like, a type of reframing the experience.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah. Well, I don't know of the research, but trauma is not always about perceptions. Like some things would just be considered traumatic regardless of the person's perception, but perception Um, the, the story that we tell about the trauma to ourselves [00:15:00] can influence how it affects us physically, emotionally, mentally.

And um, the, the best way that I can describe this is that, and this is something that I've seen through my practice. So over my course of my career as a radiation oncologist, I saw over 5, 000 patients. So I've seen lots of people. And I can tell you. The two people can have the exact same event and have totally different responses to it.

Like one person's like, whatever it just wasn't. And then it's not traumatic for them. And then someone else is more sensitive and it is absolutely a traumatic experience. And so one of the things that I think you, I'm very careful about in talking about this because it can be triggering for someone to hear.

Oh, well, you're saying it's just my perception. It's not what happens. It's like, no, but even when we have traumatic [00:16:00] experiences happen to us, the way that we frame them and the way that we think about them potentially can lessen the negative impact on it. And I think that's the benefit of what you're bringing up here is that the.

Way that we see it. If we can make a story that helps us make sense of it and helps us grow, it can, um, reaffirm resilience. Whereas if we tell ourselves, uh, a less empowering story where we're the victim of whatever's happened, it can further traumatize us. And this can stay with us. So, um, I don't know if that answer your question.

I don't have the research, but I can definitely say that there is a framing of your experience that impacts the long term impact of that experience on you.

Jacqueline: That, that perfectly answers my question. And again, I mean, I'm just thinking here for the folks who have experienced perhaps a recent trauma [00:17:00] and they might be thinking, you know, this already happened. What can I do to prevent my body from going into that sympathetic state for the rest of my life, um, and try to overcome those memories.

And I think a lot of it does have to do with reframing and, you know, being the hero rather than the victim of your story or whatever event happened.

Dr. Katie Deming: And I think finding the right modalities to deal with that trauma. So in my practice, we use psych K quite a bit, which is a technique that is used for emotional processing, releasing past traumas, and also programming the subconscious mind. But there are lots of other, um, types of, um, or modalities that can help with.

Uh, processing emotional trauma like EMDR, there's EFT tapping, there's emotion code, there's traditional therapy. So I think it's [00:18:00] important to find something that works for you to process and work through this because we're never destined to get sick from a trauma. Because we have this awareness now that, Oh, if that happened, if there's a way that I can help release this and lessen its impact on myself, that can only be positive for my health.

Jacqueline: And going back to this language around fear, right? Especially when that patient's in their doctor's office, they just get a cancer diagnosis. Fear is one of the worst emotions. It clouds our thinking. It makes us, perhaps make decisions that we otherwise wouldn't have made. And you gave this incredible TED talk titled How to Talk to Someone with Cancer.

And in which you talk about just that, right? How language can actually harm patients. So, for listeners who have not heard your TED Talk or who may not be familiar with your work, can you give some examples of maybe some of those words that you've seen really harm patients in that setting?

Dr. Katie Deming: Sure. Well, the first one [00:19:00] that I had no clue. I really was clueless to the impact of the word survivor on people who are experiencing cancer. And what happened when I was working as a health care leader, we were redesigning the cancer program for large care. Large scale health care system. And anytime I'm designing care, I bring the people who are experiencing the care to the table because I feel like you can't design something without the people who are experiencing it at the table because we have no idea what it's like to actually experience the care.

And so I had this group of advisors. It was mostly patients, but then also some loved ones like family members. And we were talking about survivorship programs, which is basically just the name that we give for the program for people after they finish active treatment and they're going back to regular life.

They need less intensive visits from the doctor, but they do still need to be followed. So we were talking about that program and this woman stood up and she said, I hate that [00:20:00] word. And I was confused. I like turned around. I'm like, did someone say something? I'm like, what word? And she said survivor. And then she explained that she had stage four cancer and she was mad that we called her a survivor.

And just for a little background, the definition of survivor At that time, it shifted slightly, but not dramatically. But at that time, the National Cancer Institute defined a cancer survivor as anyone with cancer from the date of diagnosis to the date of their death, regardless of their disease status.

So you could have metastatic cancer and be dying of your cancer and be called a survivor. And she was pissed and she was like, this is not right that you're calling me a survivor and I'm going to die of my cancer. And so, and then this program that you're talking about, makes me mad because I'm never going to be able to participate in it because I'm never going to finish active [00:21:00] treatment.

I'm always going to be in treatment. And so it just opened my eyes. And then soon, like all these people around the table started telling me their feelings about the term survivor. And they had very different reasons, but they all explained that this word was triggering for them in some way. And so for me, I wanted to know more because here I had been practicing like 15 years at this point, and I had no idea that this word was upsetting and we were using it everywhere.

And so I did a study, we did a couple studies. We did a pilot study on a large group of people who had all different types of cancer, but then ultimately the study that we published was with a group of women with breast cancer, about 1400 women. And basically we asked them how they felt about the term survivor and then why.

And what we found was that the word was, um, 60 percent of the comments were negative, that people had a negative impact to it. And either it brought up like, that they felt [00:22:00] like using that word was tempting fate. Like to say I'm a survivor, they worry that then that means it's going to come back. Cause they're basically saying something that they don't know is true yet.

Or some people said, yeah, You know, it, uh, reminds me of like a traumatic time in my life. Other people said, um, I don't feel like I deserved it cause I didn't have it hard enough, my treatment. And then of course the stage four, you know, Uh, issue that was brought up by my, that initial advisor about like, why would you call me this?

It's just like, not a nice thing to do to call us survivors when our cancer is basically going to kill us. And so this was. really eyeopening for me. And then I started looking at other language and the most glaring example of language and potentially having a detrimental effect on patients was the battle language, which is used everywhere.

And, um, you know, it's like the war on cancer [00:23:00] and, you know, fight and win the battle and all of this stuff. And I think when people use it, their mean, well meaning, but if you think about it, that kind of language is often used in politics. So, uh, Nixon was the first person who declared the war on cancer and it's used in like marketing, like battle language or in sports.

And in those scenarios, it's. It's intended to motivate people because it's kind of emotional and it brings up this emotional aspect of it. But the problem with that is that when we're helping someone heal, we're not trying to sell something. We're trying to create peace for the person who's healing. And sometimes using this language, if it's not, if it doesn't align with them, it can put them in a place of, you know, Disconnect with whoever's using the language.

So I'll just use an example. Like someone, you know, I had a [00:24:00] patient who had stage four cancer and had done some treatment was like, but I've had enough. Like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to spend my life doing these treatments. And then the family's like, Oh, you're giving up the battle and like, you're going to lose the fight.

And it's like, why would we ever say that to someone? Who's choosing to, you know, do quality of life or whatever they need, or some people may not want to do any treatment to begin with. They may want to pursue a totally different path. And, and this language can be really challenging for people. And I think the big thing that I want to say about this is that I don't have the answers that I, I think that for some people, battle language can be motivating.

And if someone finds it like that, it's like gets them going and, and this is motivating for them. Great. They can use that language or if they like the term survivor, and that is like motivating for them. Amazing. I think [00:25:00] what my TED talk, what I wanted to bring up was that language can have a negative impact that you may not be aware of.

And so instead of just instinctually using these words, Is to get curious and to ask your loved one, like, what words do you want me to use? What feels empowering to you so that I can use the words that are going to help you heal and not say something that's going to put a disconnect there or make you feel like you have to defend your position

Jacqueline: Absolutely. I, I love that so much, Dr. Deming, and that reminded me as well, someone a few weeks ago said something to me that was very profound, and it was in the context of this battle against cancer, and he was like, if I push you, what are you gonna do? You're gonna, you're gonna push back. Right? So if you're thinking of fighting your cancer in a way, like the cancer is going to fight you back, right?

You don't want this to be a war. You don't want this to be a battle. You want to be the victor. And it sounds crazy. [00:26:00] But I mean, you hear so many people talk about it. You know, actually speaking to your cancer cells because they are your body's own cells, right? That have just gone, gone awry, but they're still your body cells.

And the way you speak to your body has incredible power, even from a biblical standpoint. So I'm, I'm Christian, Dr. Deming, and I think one of. The areas that I've become most fascinated with is the intersection between faith and healing and the Bible says life and death is in the power of the tongue and the words we speak really do have a lot of power, over our health, over our lives, I also encourage, you know, listeners or anyone who's caring for someone with cancer or who has cancer, be, discerning in terms of, you know, what oncologist you see, because there are a lot of oncologists out there who. speak words of, fear into their patients in terms of like prognosis or what have you. And I think it's really important to work with an oncologist who speak words of life over your situation, and there's [00:27:00] even been studies, I'm sure you're aware of a few that have shown that, you know, patient's lifespans can also be directly correlated with the attitude of their doctor, uh, when it comes to, to facing severe, you know, late stage cancer diagnoses.

Dr. Katie Deming: Absolutely. I mean, this is the whole basis of my practice now is that I really believe that the healing is divine. And That we're designed to allow that to happen. And I'm just setting people up to allow God's work to happen through them.

Like that, that is the work that I'm doing. So I love that you brought that up and absolutely our words are so powerful. And going back to the thing that you said about when you're fighting something, you know, if you're pushed, what are you going to do? You're going to push back. But the other thing like to take that even to another level is that when we use this battle language.

for something that's inside ourselves, then we're creating a fight within ourselves.

And so then there's this like [00:28:00] internal conflict. And if healing like divine healing, especially comes from a place of peace. If we're fighting that we're creating this conflict that, that blocks that process. 

But in terms of the words that we speak and how this influences our bodies, we Yeah.

Our word is our wand, you know, speak and it shall be done. Like the things that we say are so important. And you have to remember when you go to see the doctors, I really like have this, like soft spot in my, my heart for the doctors, because.

Jacqueline: I'm sure.

Dr. Katie Deming: The doctors are trained into a system and most of them went in because they really wanted to help people.

But then they've been trained into a system that is all focused on like litigation and like that you have to protect yourself so that you don't get sued. So then you have to tell [00:29:00] patients, you know, the, facts, and you have to tell them informed consent. You have to tell them everything that could go wrong with their treatment.

But if you really understand how healing occurs, you understand how harmful all of that is. And so what you said is exactly correct is finding a doctor. Who understands the nuances of their healing and that it's not just the medications that they give, but it's the way that they speak to you. It's the way that they talk about the potential side effects of the treatment about prognosis.

And I'm always careful that I ask people, what is it that Would be helpful information to just give them enough that they can, you know, anchor themselves into creating what they want to create, but without creating a story. That's not true to them because basically we're making up stuff. We're saying based on averages, this is what we would expect and some people that gives them something to [00:30:00] work with.

And then they really, they want that information and they can use it in a way that it can be productive. Um, but I would say most of the time. Doctors are like throwing a bucket of ice water on our patients with prognosis with all of these, you know, informed consent that we do. And I always used to say when I was still practicing and like, you know, cause it took me a little time to actually leave after my shared death experiences.

I would say, you know, Okay. I have to give you all the side effects. And then at the end, I'd be like, okay, I wish I had like an eraser board and we could just erase everything that I just said. And, but I would tell them, I said, all of those things that I just told you, I told you because I have to tell you, but I don't expect all of those to happen for you.

And so I want you to go into this with not expecting any of it. And if any of anything comes up, your job is just to tell me, and then I'll help. Solve through it, but I want you to forget the things that I said, and I don't want you to expect those, but I, I wish we had [00:31:00] a better way to do it legally, you know, to practice medicine and be able to have someone sign a consent without programming in basically all these ideas.

Yeah. The fear.

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, that's spot on. And to that point, too, I feel like a lot of things can also become psychosomatic. Right? Like you, you read something and all of a sudden, no, I'm experiencing this because of what you read. Again, our mind holds a lot of power. Um, so yeah, I couldn't agree more to that.

But interestingly, too. You just reminded me of something when you said, you know, we're talking about words and how your body responds to that. You, I remember I had a really interesting, or an interesting part of your conversation with Chris was about water. And, You have this interest in, in like structure and the form of water, water in our cells.

And that is a whole new area that I recently just tapped into so I'd love if you could maybe just touch on that and why it's so important.

And just our thoughts, you know, how our thoughts can actually [00:32:00] impact the ability of water structure, which I found fascinating.

Dr. Katie Deming: Sure. So this is, I'm going to give, it requires just a little bit of, of background to explain this, but basically we. Without water, there is no life like water is the source of life. Like we don't have any living plant animal without water. None of them can exist, right? So water is the required ingredient for life on this planet.

And in learning about Gerald Pollack's work, who studies the fourth phase of water, this is really what opened my eyes to the power of water. But basically what Gerald Pollack. did was he did some experiments looking at water and its behavior. And typically we think of water existing in three phases. So solid [00:33:00] as ice liquid, which is water we think of, and then vapor or steam.

And so those are the three phases. But what Gerald Pollack found was that when he put Like a little, let's just say it's a test tube, but it's open on either end. When he submerged this test tube, that's like basically an open tube into a large beaker of water, he found that water started to move through the tube in a spiral.

Like one direction, and he couldn't explain it because he's like, there's no battery source connected to this beaker of water. Like, why is the water moving in one direction? But when they looked closer, what they found was that the water was forming a layer along this little test tube. And the test tube was made, I think it was napion, but basically it was like a water loving, uh, Um, material.

And so when you have a water loving material submerged in water, what happens is the water starts to line [00:34:00] up and create like sheets, very thin sheets on the inside of this tube. And that sheet of water was basically like a gel form of water. You can almost think like jello, like jello is a different form than liquid jello than when it hardens.

Right. And so the water in these little layers, he calls EZ water, that's the layers of water that lined up on this surface and EZ stands for exclusion zone. And basically what he found was that these sheets of water have a negative charge and water has a positive charge because H2O plus and basically this negative charge of this EZ water of the water in these layers and the differential between the positive charge water basically was propelling the water through.

through the tube. 

And then when he took the beaker and he put it in a lead box, That water stopped and then he took it out and the [00:35:00] water was moving again. And basically what he found was infrared from just like we're surrounded by infrared, our biggest source of infrared is from the sun, but then humans, animals, all of us put off infrared are, you know, it's ambient in our environment, infrared is all around us.

And so infrared was the source that he found that was, that was You know, basically causing this water to structure along this tube. And so as he started studying this, he realized that this was happening in nature because we have hydrophilic surfaces like that test tube all throughout our bodies and plants have them all throughout their system as well.

And so we started looking at like plants and it turns out that the plants structure their water in the same way. And this is actually what allows. sap to go up a tree, travel up and defy gravity because the negative charge of [00:36:00] this structured water basically is propelling the liquid water up. And so basically this has like profound ramifications.

It turns out that our circulatory system is not so much driven by our heart, but driven by the structuring of water in our bloodstream. And that if we're not getting the right inputs, The sun being one of them connecting with the earth, another one, if we're not getting the right inputs, we're not, our water is not structured optimally.

And basically we then end up having decreased circulation and cardiovascular disease is tied to this. And it turns out that cancer is also tied to this because the structuring of the water in our cells, it's not just about drinking structured water, although drinking structured water is great. Okay.

Great. And it's great to be drinking structured water, but even if you don't drink structured water, our body structures, the water that we hold in our [00:37:00] cells and most people think of our bodies as being somewhere between 60 and 70 percent water by volume. But if you look at the molecules in our body, 99.

9 percent of the molecules in our body are water.

And if the structuring of our water is important, this has huge, impact on our overall health. And so for cancer cells, one of the things that Is now, and I think that this is not well fleshed out, but if you wanted to read about it, a book, um, is Tom Cowan's book, um, water and the, or sorry, cancer and the new biology of water is a good book that talks about this, but basically this idea is that our cells require.

Uh, certain nutrients to structure the water in the cells. And it also is dependent on the mitochondria, which I'm sure you've talked about on here cancer as a [00:38:00] metabolic condition and being related to poorly functioning mitochondria. This ties directly into that, that you need the mitochondria to structure the water in the cells and that cancer is a loss of structured water in the body.

And in fact, actually death, like. Um, there are multiple quotes of describing that death is really just the diminishment of the structured water in our body, that as we age, we're less able to structure the water. And so this is like a very complex topic, but this is the idea, the crux of it, that the structuring of the water in ourselves is really, really important.

for health and that when we have a diminishment in the structuring of the water, we can have, you know, cardiovascular disease. We can have, uh, cancer. We can have all of these things that lead to illness in the body. But the piece that you were talking about in [00:39:00] terms of emotions, like for me, when I learned about the water, I started to see how the four pill, like the four areas that I knew were required for holistic healing.

So from physical practices to emotional work, to mental work and spiritual work, I realized that they all impact the water that we hold. So from a physical perspective, the diet that we eat. affects our ability to structure the water in our cells. The water that we drink affects the structure of the water in our cells.

Getting sunlight structures our water just going out and you don't even have to be like, you know, getting the vitamin D. It's just like the sun's rays, the infrared through your skull actually impacts the structuring of the water in your body. So just like that. Physical practices. But then if you look at the work of Emoto, who's a Japanese scientist looking at the impact of our words and emotions [00:40:00] on the structure of water, he showed that if you said hateful things to water, he would.

Freeze the water, do water crystallography. And basically, if you said hateful things to the water, the water would be in like a very disorganized structure, you know, like jagged edges and not coherent at all. But if you said loving things to the water, it would be like a beautiful snowflake. And the snowflake is a perfect example of structured water.

It's hexagonal form. It's like these beautiful snowflakes. And so That right there, you can see that our emotions are impacting the water that we hold if we're water and the water that the emotions can disorganize or organize the water. It's like so. It was so eyeopening. So that was one piece of it. And then the mental component, and this comes to the work of Veda Austin, [00:41:00] who looks at consciousness and water and the impact of our thoughts, but then also higher consciousness of water.

And that that also can either create this coherent, beautiful pattern. If our thoughts are, you know, beautiful and loving. Or it can cause these like really distorted patterns. And so then this is another example of how, why it's so important to do the mindset work because our thoughts impact our body.

And then also from a spiritual perspective, like water carries light. which is information and that ultimately that's spiritual and there's this spiritual connection. And if you think about healing with water, so the, um, spring at Lord's France, people travel from all over the world to be healed by that water.

There's something special happening in that water that basically activates divine healing. And so, Um, you know, there's [00:42:00] this idea that water holds consciousness and information. And when we're open to that, that really is, um, is profound. So when I learned about easy water, it was kind of like the puzzle pieces started to come together.

Like, Oh, water is the unifying, um, Idea or concept that explains why we need to focus on these four different areas and that without doing all of them, you can't find wholeness because it all of the things that we do impact the water that we carry and we ultimately are water bodies were bodies of water.

Jacqueline: Wow. That's so interesting. And that just brought to mind, too. I mean, they say water carries negative ions, which are incredibly healing, right? Which is why you always tend to feel better. At least I do whenever I'm by myself. a lake or a waterfall or the ocean, um, even just from that perspective. But aside Dr.

Deming from just the practices of grounding and [00:43:00] proper nutrition and good water hydration, what other things can we do? Perhaps maybe things that might not be natural, like, I don't know, infrared, you know, red light therapy or infrared saunas. Could that also assist in helping the body create structured water within ourselves?

Dr. Katie Deming: Absolutely. So, um, saunas are a great example. Infrared, particularly infrared saunas are a great way to structure your water and detoxify the body. Right? So the idea behind saunas, there's the traditional saunas that are just heat like you think of a traditional food. sauna from Finland that, you know, where you've got the hot rocks and it's just the heat that is really healing for the body, just the heat and detoxing.

But when you add the infrared, which many saunas have as well, that infrared is not only helping detoxify the body on like superficial mid and deep levels, but it also is structuring the water. And, um, [00:44:00] Dr. Pollack talked about when he was at, I forget, he was somewhere in Northern Europe at a conference.

And it was like 11 o'clock at night and he was exhausted. And they had been at like all these meetings. And then everyone's like, let's go for a sauna. And he was like, what, why, why won't we go for a sauna? And he was like, this sounds terrible. And then he went and after like, 30 minutes in the sauna. He was like, Oh, I'm ready to go.

And anyone who uses a sauna, you'll know that, that it kind of just like revives you. And it's basically structuring your water. So that's a really great example. Another one is grounding, um, you know, sleeping with a grounding mat is a way to structure your water earthing, you know, just going out and putting your feet in the grass each day.

Um, all of those things can help structure your water as well.

Jacqueline: Yeah. Super simple practices. Again, I feel like, there's so much noise in the wellness space where people are like, you have to buy these thousand dollar machines and, you [00:45:00] know, do you have a three hour morning routine? But it really just comes down to the basics, right? Things that are free, sunlight, morning walks, time in nature, that are the foundational basics of, of just healing, right?

We don't, we don't need all the, the bells and whistles.

Dr. Katie Deming: Absolutely. Well, and I think that that is one of the things that is, um, I, I've come up against in my new practice is that people, there are just, there's so much noise and there's so many things that you can be doing. that I have to keep bringing people back. It's not that complicated. And actually, if you want to do it for free, we can do all of these things for free, but it's going to require time.

Now there are some shortcuts like, so putting the grounding mat on your mattress is going to help if you're not committed to walking in your grass every day. So there are these little tricks, but the truth is that it doesn't have to [00:46:00] be like this. Three hour morning routine, but you do have to know the right things to do to incorporate into your schedule.

But absolutely it's not as complicated as, as some may make you think it is, and it also think about it. Like when people lived in, um, primitive societies and they didn't get cancer. They weren't having to do any of these additional things. They were just naturally getting the inputs that they needed because they were connecting with the land that they lived on.

So in a modern lifestyle, we just have to remember back to what we're designed for and bring those inputs back into our life. But it's, it doesn't have to be complicated.

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. And that just made me think of another question that I'm really curious of your opinion on. You mentioned how obviously years and years ago, you know, we didn't have a such high rates of cancer. My question for you is, do you think the increase in terms of screening for cancer Is a [00:47:00] direct correlation to these increased rates that we're seeing and by that too, or in that same vein, rather sometimes I feel Dr Deming, like, and again, I can't really speak from a research perspective, just anecdotally that there's a lot of cases where people with.

perhaps like stage one or two cancers who, I don't know, may not necessarily need any type of treatment. Like there's cases of spontaneous remission, right? Where someone receives a diagnosis and the cancer just resolves on its own. I've always been curious even to in my mom's case, um, she was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer back in 2018 after being in remission from stage two for about 10 years.

And I always think back Dr. Deming to 2008 when she had stage two. And I always questioned like, What if we just didn't do anything? What if she didn't have a mastectomy? What if we just left it as it is? Because we hear all these things about tumor seeding when you do a biopsy, and obviously surgery has, has risks with that too.

So, I [00:48:00] guess, I mean, that was a long winded question, but what are your thoughts on just not doing anything? with, with a cancer diagnosis. Maybe give someone a timeline, six months or a year, see if the body resolves it on its own, and then maybe consider introducing some type of treatment. Has there been any literature or research on that?

Dr. Katie Deming: We don't have literature or research on that. And my personal opinion is not doing anything for someone who has developed cancer is probably not a good idea. But when I say not do anything, I'm not meaning that the anything has to be conventional therapy. But if you think about this, if you think about.

If someone has gotten to the point where their body has grown cancer, there's clearly an imbalance. And so you would want to do something, but I absolutely in my heart of hearts believes, I believe that you could. not do conventional therapy and you could heal cancer without having conventional therapy.

I know that's [00:49:00] possible. Kelly Turner's work is an example of that, right? But then I also, you know, one of my first clients who I treated in this capacity, you know, a lot of the people that I treat actually have conventional therapy. therapies and so they've had their tumors removed and they're having, you know, additional chemotherapy or whatever hormonal therapy and so it's hard for me to say, okay, well, what is an impact of what I've, what we're doing versus the work that they, um, have had done with conventional therapy.

But I had one client who did not have, um, Like a treatment that would get rid of all of her cancer, basically just had radiosurgery, which is a very focused type of radiation. But when you do that, you don't. So basically she had a brain tumor. It was, it was a breast cancer that had spread to the, her brain.

So brain Brain metastasis from breast cancer. And, um, she had radio surgery, but with radio surgery, the expectation is that at [00:50:00] like three to six months after the radiation, the tumor will be bigger actually, but just less active on the,

um, taking up of the contrast. And then at a year it should be smaller.

And then by years down the road, you still see that there's something there, but it's, it's not active. But for her, what ended up happening was in our work together, she at three months had a scan and basically the scan was completely empty. Like there was no tumor, no necrosis, which you would normally expect to see.

Her brain scan was completely clear to the point where her surgeon was like, wait, there's nothing there. And she didn't understand it when she was seeing him and he was like, there's literally nothing there. Like, that's not. 

Jacqueline: not. even scar

Dr. Katie Deming: no, no, no scar tissue, nothing like, so actually, and I show these scans on my Instagram, but basically, um, she had a complete response, like she complete resolution of her cancer.

And that can not be attributed to the [00:51:00] treatment that she had, but. The work that we had done was like, got her kind of cleaned out and aligned up and, and she'll, and we did a water fast, which ended up being kind of like a spiritual experience for her. And at the end of that, she just knew, she's like, I just know that I'm healed.

I just know that I'm done with this now. And then when she had that scan, and so I know that this can happen. And so, but I wouldn't say that if you have cancer and you're just going to not do anything, our bodies need help detoxifying and then getting the right nutrients and getting back into balance.

But if you do those things, Absolutely. You know, and I, and this is what I hope is that I hope we move into a paradigm where this becomes the norm, 

where we start to question, because if you think now that I understand cancer, it's like cancer is an imbalance of excess toxicities in the body and a lowered [00:52:00] immune function.

Right. So if your immune function is, um, or if your immune system is functioning, well, ultimately our immune system deals with cancer all the time. We have cells all the time that are, you know, damaged or whatever, and our body just gets rhythm. But if you have cancer, you have an imbalance, you have the excess toxicity and lowered immune system.

And if you think about conventional therapies, what do they do? They increase your toxicity. 

By putting poisons in your system and they lower your immune system. So, potentially, these are worsening the problem that we're dealing with, even though temporarily, maybe the tumors go away. So, um, I, I, I'm with you there.

Absolutely. And then to answer your question about screening. I don't think that screening and in itself is the problem. I think that, I think screening is, is not, um, is not what we in Western medicine have [00:53:00] thought it is. And I think that there are absolutely risks associated with it. And anytime you're delivering radiation to a large population, you're going to, you're cause a certain percentage of cancer.

So there's absolutely no doubt about that data. But this is the thing is that so Tate, say we took like, uh, there was a population of people who were completely isolated from the rest of the world and living in a traditional way. And they just don't have cancer in their, um, It's just not something that they see.

If we introduced screening, screening would alone would not have them have a incidence of cancer of one in two for men and one in three in women. Although it might increase slightly because over time you're exposing those people to radiation. So I don't think screening is the problem as to why we have such high rates of cancer right now.

I think it really is to our overall lifestyle, but I think it is also contributing. [00:54:00] You know, so, so it's, it's a contributing factor, but I think it's smaller than the bigger issue, which is just the way that we're living.

Jacqueline: Right. No, there's a lot of nuance for sure. Are you a fan of thermography?

Dr. Katie Deming: I know. So this is, so it's interesting. I'm getting a lot of questions about screening tests and, um,

Jacqueline: I'm really curious what your take is.

Dr. Katie Deming: so this is my thing is that I, um, I'm not focused on that right now because I think the problem is not how we detect cancer. I think it's how we teach people how to heal. I'm not sure what the right screening is or, or surveillance is, because this is the thing is when you start to introduce different techniques, you want to make sure that they are reliable, that they are actually detecting cancer, that they're not giving you false positives and detecting something that requires a biopsy that, you know, like for example, [00:55:00] MRI is very sensitive.

but it's so sensitive that people end up having unnecessary biopsy. So I don't know enough with thermography, but I think whenever you're looking at screening tests, you want to make sure that it's sensitive. So it's picking up you what you want to detect, and you want to make sure it's not too sensitive.

So that's picturing up, picking up things and you have unnecessary biopsies, and it's also reliable. And so I don't know. Specifically with this, but it's interesting because when people ask me and they get hyper focused on the screening tools, I almost want to say like, this is less important. Like, I understand it's important, but it's like, if we figured out what we need to be doing, we would be less worried about the screening and more focused on what actually creates the healing, if that makes sense.

Jacqueline: Yeah, no, it does. That makes complete sense. And yeah, I should have prefaced my question before too in terms of not doing anything. I think by all [00:56:00] means, if someone does, you know, find out they have a cancer diagnosis, do something. But to your point doesn't necessarily have to be that conventional approach just

Dr. Katie Deming: Exactly. Well, and I knew you didn't mean that, but I just wanted to clarify that so that, yeah.

Jacqueline: Yeah, we might want to change our diet and do some different lifestyle changes for sure.

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah, and actually I think that this is, I really believe strongly that cancer is a, um, invitation to radically change your life and that, um, if, you know, that, that really something needs to change if, if cancer is growing in your body. And I, it doesn't, it's not the same for everyone, but absolutely change needs to happen.

Jacqueline: Yeah, no, and bringing the conversation back full circle. I mean, talking about reframing and paradigm shifts, Chris work has always said, you know, he views his cancer as a gift. Right. And I know some folks who hear that might think that is the absolute most insane thing to say. But [00:57:00] actually, it, it can be a gift for many people, just to your point, it's a call for them to.

change, right? Like change old habits that they've been unable to break. And sometimes it's really that pushing force that many people really need, um, to otherwise make changes that again, they probably would never even consider doing. So

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah. And this was something that I, I've always said to my patients, even when I was practicing conventionally is that cancer is a crisis and crisis in Chinese is symbolized by two symbols. The first symbol is danger. The second symbol is. Opportunity. And that cancer is presenting you with an opportunity.

And when things are going just okay, or even kind of good in our lives, it's hard to make big changes because people will be like, why are you rocking the boat? Why do you want to make these huge changes? If everything is okay. But when you have a diagnosis of cancer, it's a perfect opportunity. [00:58:00] To start to make changes because other people will be like, Oh, I get it.

Like, you know, it's like this happened and now I'm going to make big changes. So this is your chance. It's hard to make big changes when everything is going kind of okay. But when you have something like this happen, use that opportunity. And there's a quote by Rumi that says the wound is where the light enters me.

And I really, that's why I went into oncology is because I love being close to that light. When people are broken open by a diagnosis like cancer, there's something really beautiful that can transpire if you allow it. But it's, it's a matter of seeing it like that. And I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not trying to diminish this at all.

This is a very challenging time for many, many people. But there's huge opportunity if you allow yourself to see it and embrace it.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I love that. Absolutely. And Dr. Deming, I mean, I just love what you've done in terms of how you've transitioned [00:59:00] your career because you are helping so, so many people. I feel like on a much broader, uh, standpoint than you previously were. 

And I, I did have one question, well, two more questions for you. My first one, and this is more so for me as well, but I know there's a lot of listeners out there who are caretakers of, of someone, facing cancer.

What advice could you offer them in terms of ensuring that they're taking good care of themselves throughout this process?

Dr. Katie Deming: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I just had a call right before this interview with someone who is caretaking for his father and our whole session ended up being about how he can take care of himself to, you know, Be able to help his dad on his path. And I think the first thing is making sure that you have your own support and that you are using this opportunity.

So the crisis is not just for the person who's sick. Cancer is something that affects the whole ecosystem, the whole family, [01:00:00] everyone who is connected to the person who's sick. And so if you are, Um, having someone who you love, who's experiencing cancer, it's a really good opportunity for you to look at, okay, what do I need to do to take care of myself and how do I prioritize taking care of myself?

I think one of the quotes that my mentor always says is he says, if I want to give you 50 cents, I can't give you 50 cents unless I have a dollar in my pocket first. And so you have to fill yourself up first before you can give to someone else. And so even though it can feel selfish, when you're a caregiver, you're like, gosh, they're, you know, they have all these needs.

If you don't keep yourself full, you can't, you will run out of things to give them. And so it's really important to care for yourself. It's really important to have your own, um, support system so that you're not relying on the [01:01:00] person that is sick to help caretake for you, which is weird. People are like, what are you talking about?

But if you think about this, I, a lot of times I have clients who they're describing that their family is worried about them. So they're constantly trying to reassure them that everything is fine. And so you want to make sure that you're not looking for reassurance from the person who says that. sick that you're finding your own support outside of that.

So those are some of the things, but also just looking at like, and I love the way you're using this experience to, you know, you're teaching other people, not only teaching yourself, but it's like such an opera, beautiful opportunity to learn and grow personally. Every crisis has opportunity for all of us.

Jacqueline: Yeah. No, amen. And again, something I repetitively tell myself every day is God works all things together for our good and his glory, no matter what it is, right? It could be the worst of situations, but it's just about seeing the light and creating that opportunity. So I, [01:02:00] I love that. Um Dr. Deming, this has been so much fun.

We've covered so much, but I also feel like there's so many more questions I still have yet to ask you. So I'd love to bring you on, um, you know, have you on again at some point soon. But my last question for now, and this is my favorite one to ask my interviewees is what does being well and strong mean to you?

Dr. Katie Deming: Being well and strong to me means being my authentic self and living the fullest version of myself every day. I

Jacqueline: Thank you so much for all the work that, that you're doing. I'm so excited to share this with listeners.

So truly thank you for your time. 

Dr. Katie Deming: Love it. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been my pleasure.