55: Change Your Body Position to Improve Your Sleep | Dr. Peter Martone, DC

Even if you’re not tossing and turning all night, chances are you could still get better sleep. Today I’m speaking with Dr. Peter Martone, the owner of Atlantis Chiropractic Wellness Centers. Dr. Peter Martone is an educator, injury prevention specialist and patient care health practitioner who has been focused on improving patients’ biomechanics for over 24 years. During his private practice as a chiropractor, Dr Martone always believed that the structure of your spine effects the function of the central nervous system and this interference is at the root cause of most of the chronic problems people face. Dr. Martone now uses this principle as the cornerstone to help people Get W.A.Y. Better Sleep. His techniques have been featured on CBS, NBC, & Fox News. He currently travels the country teaching people how to regain their health in the bed by getting WAY Better Sleep. In our conversation, we discuss some actionable tips on how to improve sleep and HRV, the best posture to sleep in for the best sleep, how to deal with insomnia, & some of the best supplements to support better sleep.

Suggested Resources: 

• Dr. Peter Martone | Website | Instagram
• Magnesium for better sleep 
• Oura Ring 
• Book: Atlas Shrugged  by Ayn Rand
• Book:

This episode is proudly sponsored by Purity Woods.

Purity Woods is on a mission to provide people with the cleanest and most effective healthy aging and longevity products available. All of their products are USDA certified organic, non-GMO, and free of toxic preservatives and synthetic additives. Go to puritywoods.com/WELLNSTRONG or enter the code WELLNSTRONG at checkout for an additional 10% off your first order.

Timeline’s products have quickly become my favorite supplement for added energy, strength, and endurance. They contain a compound called urolithin A which has been shown to radically improve cellular function. Right now, Timeline is offering WellnStrong followers 10% off with the code wellnstrong10 at checkout. I can’t wait for you to give them a try!

Join the WellnStrong mailing list for exclusive content here!

Want more of The How To Be WellnStrong Podcast? Subscribe to the YouTube channel.

Follow Jacqueline:

• Instagram
• Pinterest
• TikTok
• Youtube
• To access notes from the show & full transcripts, head over to WellnStrong's Podcast Page

Transcript

*Unedited Transcript*
===

Jacqueline: [00:00:00] I'm doing well. How are

you? 

Dr. Peter Martone: I'm doing 

Jacqueline: Wow. That's pretty great for a Monday.

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, it's, uh, we had a great weekend. The weather's 


Marker
---

Dr. Peter Martone: been out of control. I have been mountain biking, been golfing. I've just started. So we're on the lake. I mean, it was such a great weekend.

Jacqueline: Wow. Sounds beautiful. I know the weather here. So I'm in Greenville, South Carolina. It was beautiful on Saturday, low humidity. Yesterday, not as much, but you are in 

Massachusetts, 

Dr. Peter Martone: I am in Massachusetts. We go up to New Hampshire, a lake up there. So it's been, it's wow. It was a game changer. What a 

Jacqueline: very nice. So I actually went to college in Wellesley, Massachusetts, and I lived in Boston for about four years

after 

college. 

Dr. Peter Martone: What school did you go to?

Jacqueline: Babson

College? 

Dr. Peter Martone: know Babson. 

Jacqueline: There you go. I know, there's a handful. It's funny. The people who know it, know it. If that makes sense. They know what it's known for, which is entrepreneurship,

but yeah, 

great, great college 

experience, 

Dr. Peter Martone: I was just going to say that's awesome. What did you [00:01:00] graduate with? What 

was the major? 

Jacqueline: economics and 

finance. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, Right. 

Jacqueline: I know. I always say it's so funny that the things that we go to college for and. Think we're going to end up studying or oftentimes not really what we end up pursuing. But I think there's certainly a place for everything. I mean, my financial and business savvy skills have certainly come to aid and, and well and strong and all of the fun LLC stuff.

But my true passion is the actual content creation 

part. 

Dr. Peter Martone: That's great. I love it. Yeah, I'm, you know, so I zigzagged into where I am in the sleep industry and it's all, you know, nobody ever wakes up and thinks they're going to be a sleep specialist. It's like, holy mackerel, that would be like the most boring thing on the planet. But that's where I am and I love

Jacqueline: Well, you've, I don't know. I don't know if you, you don't make it sound too boring, but yeah. I mean, with that, I'd love to kick it off with a bit about your background and how did you find yourself in this, the sleep space?

Dr. Peter Martone: um, so it's like, I'm an exercise physiologist in a kinesiologist that was kind [00:02:00] of my undergrad UMass degree, and then I moved into kind of led me into chiropractic. And so I always have loved the study of biomechanics, like how the body moved. And like 15 years ago, I'd always had back pain, right?

And I always attributed to like mountain biking or rock climbing. And, you know, just I always had pain, but I'm helping patients with pain. And about 15 years ago, probably a little over that now, I herniated my disc, blew out my lower back, I'm on the floor in my house, told my wife, listen, you got to take me to the, I got to call the ambulance.

She's like, I'll take you to the emergency room. Are you okay? I'm like, I can't even move. Like I was in so much pain, more pain than had ever been in my life. You know, and I'm only, you know, 30, 40 something, 40, 40, 40 years old. Yeah, I was 40 years old at the time. So, um, I'm like, holy mackerel, how did it come to this?

I'm a chiropractor. I'm lying on my floor. I'm in pain. You [00:03:00] know, like this is not a good place. So I started reviewing x rays and reviewing x rays and reviewing x rays and trying to figure out my problem. I found that I didn't have a, I had forward neck posture and my body adapted with a, what's called a psoas major muscle spasm to take pressure off of the lower back.

And the psoas is the only muscle in the human body that attaches directly to a disc. So I started working a theory. I'm like, listen, if I can get my neck back while I slept, because arguably you spend one 30 of the time in bed, I should then in theory be able to, you know, get rid of this disc problem. And I started rolling up towels, putting onto my neck.

I used to sleep in a curl up in a ball to feel so protected and nice. Now I find myself, you know, It, you know, stretching that neck back and then fast forward, my disc herniation went away and I've never been in back pain since. So, so I'm like, [00:04:00] holy mackerel, you can correct a lot of problems that night when you sleep.

So my zigzag into the sleep industry is I'm not here because I wanted to help people sleep. I'm here because I wanted to help fix their structure while they slept. And then I saw my patient's health being transformed, which is why we kind of put the whole sleep program together.

Jacqueline: Wow. That's incredible. Yeah, that's sleep program. Definitely want to dive into that. And I mean, quite honestly, this conversation couldn't come at a better time because I've been having some sleep issues lately. And who better to speak with than Mr. Sleep himself, right? I love the pajamas you have on. I got to get myself a 

Dr. Peter Martone: talk to sleep. Right. Yeah. All

Jacqueline: I love it. But I mean, with that, Dr. Peter, so What is the best position to, to sleep in? And I'll, I'll preface in saying I'm a stomach sleeper and I know that that's really not the best, uh, position to be sleeping in. And I've really tried. I've. Got on a body pillow, and I mean, I'll try to fall asleep in a certain position at [00:05:00] night.

Inevitably in the morning, I find myself on my stomach. 

Dr. Peter Martone: So the best sleeping position is really based on understanding the sleep triune. The sleep triune is the battle between your conscious brain, your subconscious brain, and your body, what it wants, right. In the body being the actual structure. Okay. So for, so for me to answer that question for you, I want you to do something.

So you're looking at me through a lens. See it right there. Make a circle and then look at me through that circle. Real small. And then bring it back to your 

Jacqueline: Okay, 

Dr. Peter Martone: Okay, good. Alright, good. Now, you can put your hands down. Are you right handed or left handed? 

Jacqueline: right, 

Dr. Peter Martone: Do you kick with your right foot or your left foot?

And then do you do anything ambidextrous or you're fully right sided?

Jacqueline: I

golf lefty Okay, perfect. So let's, let's explain a little bit about that. So this is an avatar. We, we classify people, the subconscious brain into three [00:06:00] avatars. I guess you can say you're either a gorilla that can sleep like anywhere because the whole subconscious is so secure and competent.

Dr. Peter Martone: It doesn't matter. You're an armadillo, where your body wants to feel a little protected. Or you're an ostrich that you love, you know, you love to stick your head in the ground. You love that pressure against your face and that head to feel secure. When you sleep, the cross dominant is a highly anxiety internalized individual.

You're going to be a self talker. So you're going to live in your own head. You rationalize and justify. Then you're going to suppress three systems, immune system, digestive system, and hormonal balance. Okay. So that avatar is typically going to have issues in those three areas, either one or most of the, most of the time, all three, because you're affecting.

a specific nerve called your vagus nerve. So your body requires a lot of safety to be [00:07:00] able, your subconscious brain requires a lot of safety to be able to fall asleep. Your conscious brain, it just wants comfort. So it just wants to like stay in that safe position, but the body, you're putting the body into a really specific contorted position.

So if we reverse the triune on somebody like you, you. And we start with the body in mind where you put the body into alignment, it is going to be so unsafe for your conscious brain, it's going to put you back into this position. So what the goal is, especially with the cross dominant, is using pressure to be able to fall asleep to create a safe environment.

So like I did with my kids that are cross dominant, and they wouldn't sleep on their own because they, they, they tend to like security, safety, connection. I said, all right, look, this is what we're going to do. You're going to lie on your, you're going to, you're going to lie on your back, but we're going to put all your stuffed animals.

We're going to give [00:08:00] all of your stuffed animals a superpower. Her turtle, you know, was a barrier. Nothing gets through the turtle. Then she had her tigers at the end of the bed and they, they would be the lookouts for like, you know, so, so we gave everything, we created this super safe environment for a subconscious brain to live in.

Then she can fall asleep in any position and you want to fall asleep in the position that maintains alignment. So when you ask what's the best position, The best position for the body in reins re restoring the structure is on your back. The subconscious brain isn't gonna like that. So that is not the subconscious brain's best position.

And the conscious brain just says, I can't do it. So it, it just, it's kind of the, you know, it, it's the thing that screws everything up. So the goal is alignment. Put the body into a aligned position, create subconscious. It creates safety for the subconscious brain and then be able to get the conscious brain out of its own way and that's our way better sleep [00:09:00] program is, you know, making sure that we release the full potential of a well rested aligned you so we reverse the sleep triangle.

Jacqueline: Wow. That's so interesting. I'm just curious. I've heard, again, probably not research based, but that sleeping on your left side is the most ideal. Why, why is, why are side sleepers, like, not ideal? Non ideal position.

Dr. Peter Martone: with that research is stated on, it's called something that's called glymphatic drainage or they're looking at like drainage of the arteries and organs and things like that. Most of those studies have done on animals, rats. And when you when you're looking you can create a research study that looks at almost anything But really my question is what do you?

ignoring when you're, when you're looking at that. So I believe in anchors. So anchors are things that you can't pass go before you collect 200. And one of them is that the nervous system controls everything in the human body and the structure of your spine directly [00:10:00] affects the impact of the central nervous system.

So that maintaining the health and wellbeing of your spine to me is far more important than, The, the, the sleeping, you know, the 5 percent change of heart pressure that occurs when you're on your back. And plus, I mean, yeah, on your back versus on your side. And those studies are done on rats, which have a reverse structure of the cervical spine than humans do.

So you're, you're, you're, you're trying to extrapolate. You know, you know, you're doing something on an animal and then trying to make the reference of a totally different structural spinal alignment. So I believe their basis for their conclusions are all wrong because of what they're looking at, what they're ignoring

Jacqueline: Would you say sleeping on your stomach is worse than sleeping on your side?

What is like, what is the worst sleeping position? 

Dr. Peter Martone: So. Yeah, yeah, for the body, yes, it's you want to be able to keep the spine in alignment [00:11:00] for as long as you can. You see, the number one reason people toss and turn is because their body's in pain and you can't sleep on your stomach. 

Jacqueline: That's 

me. 

Dr. Peter Martone: in this position in rotation and not eventually have a problem after about 20 minutes. So the body will toss and turn after about 20 to 30 minutes in the average person because of their alignment of the body will toss and turn 20 to 40 times a night.

That's restless night's sleep. And then everybody's told get a new pillow, get a bed.

What's the best bed? What's the best pillow? You have it all wrong, right? Those are just symptomatic approaches to. Trying to maintain an unsustainable sleeping position.

Jacqueline: So interesting. What about for pregnant women? Would you still recommend sleeping on their

back or not necessarily? 

Dr. Peter Martone: So there are different ways. So my, I still want to maintain alignment. Think about a pregnant woman. They have something that's called relaxing [00:12:00] within their system, where the spines are like clay, it can be molded. A woman's, a pregnant woman's spine is so, it can be so much more moldable. So the distortion within their lower backs, their hips causing sciatica problems, hip problems, back problems.

That all comes from misalignment, especially at night when you're sleeping. You don't want to sleep flat as a pregnant woman, but you can sleep with your knees elevated in your, in your torso elevated. So you're sleeping in this kind of unweighted position. So, so if you, so the best position like we do with my wife is we put a bunch of pillows behind her and then pillows under her knees and how to sleep in that, that look, that, that elevated position.

And that to me is the best sleeping position. And then ultimately, ultimately. If your body's uncomfortable, it's going to toss and turn anyways, you know, you're not going to be in a position that's danger for their child in any position because the body is going to move you out of that position.

Jacqueline: Right. Yeah, that [00:13:00] makes sense. So that's the body. What about the head? And I'm really curious about this because, again, there's people who prefer, like, really firm pillows that plop them up really high, and then there's others like me who prefer flat 

pillows. What's 

Dr. Peter Martone: the So let's look at the definition of a pillow. The pillow defined as a support for your head. Anytime you support the head, you're going to weaken the cervical spine, and you're destroying the structure. So we got to get the head out of our understanding when we talk about the pillow.

Anytime you support anything in the body, you weaken it. It's a law. If you don't use it, you lose it. So when we look at support, you can support the neck. Only if you're not supporting the head at the same time. So you want to support the neck, but basically have the weight of the head hang off of the back of it.

Um, is this a video? This is going to go out as a video. [00:14:00] Okay, perfect. Let me, let me show you what I mean. So where can you see the bed behind me, kind right there. Let me, let me move this down and then we're gonna do this and. I'm going to come up here and then just go. Okay. So you see the bed behind me, right?

We have an option. I don't even have a cover on this grungy little pillow, but we have the option of a pillow. Okay. So if I sleep on my, on my back, see what's happening to my airway.

If I support my head, it closes down here. You want your head up and you can't do that with the pillow. So if you take your head and you support the neck, see what the weight of my head is doing.

Jacqueline: Right. It's

resting back.

Dr. Peter Martone: It's off of the back. So now I'm looking straight up at the ceiling, but what's that doing to my airway? 

Jacqueline: Opening it. Right. Mm hmm.

Dr. Peter Martone: Right. Instead of doing [00:15:00] this. So people that think that they can't be a back sleeper is because most people do this.

Jacqueline: Interesting. See, that's me

Dr. Peter Martone: Oh, I know. But that's like 90 percent of the people on the planet. .

Jacqueline: You created this

pillow, right? Dr. That one right there. Yeah, it's called the neck 

neck nest. And essentially it does, it does just that, right? You just literally

put it 

behind 

Dr. Peter Martone: put it under your neck. And then that allows the head to hang off the back. Now we have to understand the subconscious brain is controlling sleep. So you don't have to sleep in that position the entire night. All you have to do is train your body to fall asleep in that position. That's the only lifestyle habit that needs to happen.

When people are like, Oh, what's the best position for the entire night? There's no way that anybody, anybody that tells you, you know, the best position the entire night. They don't understand that the subconscious brain is at play. So [00:16:00] you're, once you say, Oh, fall asleep on this side, you're done. Your body's tossing and turning all night long.

It's a myth to think about that. If you slept in this position the entire night, your arm would be numb. Your neck would be in pain. That's what happens when somebody goes to sleep in that position. They have alcohol. They're numb to the pain. They stay in that position. They wake up with the neck all jacked up and their arm all jacked up.

These specialists, they don't understand structure. They only understand, you know, you know, a research lab. Reality is that you, the only lifestyle habit that you're really in control of is how you fall asleep. So I want to put you into the position to help you give your body the best chance to get way better sleep.

Jacqueline: and you're saying, do you still do adjustments?

Dr. Peter Martone: I do. Yes. Three days a week. I do. Yeah.

Jacqueline: What are your thoughts on, on, do you find that I guess people, well, I mean I kind of know the answer to this question, but folks who have improper sleep [00:17:00] positions, do they tend to need more cervical 

spine 

Dr. Peter Martone: Which is, why I created this, this program to be able to help help people need me less because ultimately the subluxation or why the body goes out of alignment. Is based on a product of your lifestyle. So with you, you've sprained your right ankle, your head shifts to the right side, you're closing down your vagus nerve on that right side, which is giving you a digestion issue.

You may know you have it, or you may not know you have it, but that is due to your structure right now. And when that structure is like that. You're going to constantly need the same side adjusted because it's adapting to a specific lifestyle. So once you look, so your, your posture is a battle between your neurology and gravity.

So wait, looking at the way somebody stands and sits and holds themselves tells me a lot about how the neurology is functioning and then the neurology is affecting the organ involvement. So [00:18:00] you can, I can look at people and They don't even need to tell me what's going on. I can tell them what's going on by the way that they stand, and with a high degree of accuracy.

So in our office, we don't even, we have patients fill out new patient intake, but when they come in the room, I put it face down, and I say, I'm going to tell you what's going on based on your, based on what's going on, and it's based on looking at you, and because I can, we can look past your symptoms, At the root cause of the problem, which is basically lifestyle, which is what your posture is a representation of.

Jacqueline: Wow. Man, I wish I knew about you when I was in Massachusetts, because I would have come in to pay you a visit.

Dr. Peter Martone: Thank you.

Jacqueline: Question for you. How do you actually measure the success of people who use this pillow who do adjust their, you know, the way they fall asleep at night? I mean, is that something you could look at with like a digital x ray?

Is that just merely based on how they feel 

symptom wise? Yeah, That's a great question. So, at um, at necknest. com we have before and after x rays. So, a patient that comes [00:19:00] into my office, where we implemented the NeckNest, we have hundreds of post x rays. Of, of them using a neckness versus using a pillow. And it's a game changer. Now, if you're at home and you're like, Oh, I want to try this.

Dr. Peter Martone: So, you know, how can I determine if I'm getting a better sleep? You need some sort of tracker and you, it doesn't even need to be an expensive tracker. It can be a snore app. It could be, you know, you know, restless sleep, restlessness app. It could be your iPhone that you use, your iWatch that you use. But you can improve what you don't track or monitor.

And it could just be like, we do a four day sleep challenge and we have a sleep diary where you could just write down how you slept, the energy that you're feeling. If you have a tracker and you use HRV to monitor your energy levels, there are so many different things, but you got to start with a metric, whether one, two or

three. And it can be subjective where you could just write it down. You can do pain. You know, did I wake up in pain? Do I feel refreshed? How much [00:20:00] energy did I have during the day? Then you start and then you just monitor that. So that's kind of, you know, it really is individual from person to person based on either the resources or how into it they want to get.

Jacqueline: Yeah, that makes sense. Are you a fan of Oura 

Ring? Yeah. So I actually, I have one, mine's charging, but I'm a fan of anything that is easy to use and gives you data. The, the. The what you're using to monitor your sleep is only as good as the consistency. It is that you're using it So whether one's giving you this hrv or one's giving you this and you're comparing them And then you're comparing your numbers to everybody else.

Dr. Peter Martone: You can't do that. You need to just take your own metrics Over a period of time, then implement a change and see how those metrics change.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I am. I recently got an aura ring and I've just found It's super super insightful in terms of telling me the length of time I sleep at night, and I am curious I mean, you know, I like to [00:21:00] compare with my friends and our sleep patterns vary but How much sleep do we need per night? I mean, again, I'm assuming that's going to vary per individual, but is there like an

average we should strive for? it varies significantly, but on your oura ring, there's a specific metric called your HRV, right? Heart rate variability and your HRV. you take over a period of time. Let's say, um, your HRV averages out at a 30 or a 40 and you feel that you're well rested the day that you get a 45. So that 45 HRV, you look at the, that night that you got, you know, the timing that you got, the time you went to bed and how much you got. And then you strive to do 10 percent better than that. Right? So let's say you strive for 50. Okay. Whatever sleep you require to get to that higher HRV reading is what's best for you.

Dr. Peter Martone: So it's an average [00:22:00] between, you know, eight to nine hours of sleep as far as, you know, over, you know, thousands and thousands of people that we've seen, you know, last night. So I'm going to give you a, for instance, and I live a very practical lifestyle where I understand during the weekend because that's my, I do a lot of intermittent fasting and 24 hour fast, but my weekends are when I feast.

I do whatever I want. And I know when I do whatever I want, it's not great for my sleep pattern. So sometimes on a Saturday and a Sunday night, I won't get great sleep and I'll be, I'll be tanked. So I know that I need to make up my sleep, um, that next, like that Monday either with the nap or Tuesday with the nap.

And, um, so it really varies as to how your life, you know, how you're, you're implementing sleep into your life, but sleep should be scheduled and should have a plan to be able to make that sleep up.

Jacqueline: Yeah, that makes sense. Speaking of fasting, one area that I think [00:23:00] not many people recognize is the importance of fasting before going to sleep. And when I say fasting, I mean like restricting your, your feeding, you know, to at least like three or four hours before you go to bed. Would you say that's pretty accurate?

Dr. Peter Martone: When you look at sleep, we want to break sleep down into. Body Repair and Brain Repair, that's the easiest way to look at it. So, body repair and growth and development happens when the first third of your sleep cycle, typically, called deep sleep. And then, uh, mind repair or, or, or mind growth and, and, and where you're going to have less brain fog and stuff like that typically happens at the end of your sleep cycles.

In REM sleep so that body repair in order to get good body repair. You need your body core temperature to drop one to two degrees Certain things that you can, so somebody can have caffeine at eight o'clock and say, Oh, I can go to sleep. Yeah, you can go to sleep, but you're not going to [00:24:00] get good deep restorative sleep because you're not getting into that deep sleep because your heart rate is still high.

So the three variables that keep your heart rate up are, I mean, sorry, they keep your, your body out of deep sleep is a high heart rate, a high respiratory rate. In a high core temperature. Well, certain things affect core temperature and a byproduct of digestion is heat. So if you're eating late, your body is going to be a furnace and you're not going to be able to get that deep sleep.

So yeah, I am even a firm believer if you're going to eat that late, make sure that it's a light meal. But it should be at least four hours before bed.

Jacqueline: Yeah, I've, I notice a difference too, right? Like if I do some late night snacking, even if it's just like a handful of nuts, I just don't feel well the next morning. I don't feel well rested. I still feel like it's still in my stomach. Um, and you said you do 24 hour fast once 

a week. 

Dr. Peter Martone: I do. 

Jacqueline: Do you find that your [00:25:00] sleep when you do 24 hour fast is better?

Dr. Peter Martone: Well, actually here. So I'll tell you how I fast. So Monday like today Um, which is monday. I won't eat until noon, right? My last meal was last night at six o'clock, so I won't eat until noon And then I'll eat at noon and then I'll eat again at dinner, which my dinner is typically around six and my dinner is light so that I can go to bed at nine thirty, which is three and a half hours.

So I do that Monday, Tuesday. Sometimes I don't just because that's my exercise. I exercise late, exercise late destroys my sleep Tuesday night. So I'll nap on Wednesday and um, and then I'll do the same thing. Now, Thursday into Friday is where it's different. So my last meal. Thursday night is at six like normal on Friday morning.

I'll do a fasting workout, which means I won't eat. Then I'll skip lunch and I'll eat at dinner. [00:26:00] So basically I'm going dinner to dinner. I'm not doing an overnight fast, which usually affects your insulin levels a little bit where it, you know, it can mess with how well you sleep that night. If you do a multiple nights fast, sometimes it's, um, it's a little bit different.

Jacqueline: The longest I've done has been like 48 hours and I realized that it's been challenging to fall asleep. Particularly the second night. So I'm always curious to hear people's, uh, how they feel when they do those extended fasts. Going back though, so what is the ideal time to fall asleep?

And again, I know this varies, everyone has different schedules, but is there like a best time when it comes to like, we hear about optimizing your circadian rhythm and a lot of folks say, you know, try to be in bed or be asleep by like 10 Is there any 

truth to that? 

Dr. Peter Martone: So, and, and it also varies based on the size, based on when the sun sets. So you can get away going to bed later in the summertime. [00:27:00] You know, it makes sense that like, like animals hibernate, you want to go to bed earlier in the winter time. So my typical, I strive during the winter, typically between nine and nine 30.

And then during the summer I go at nine 30 and 10. So you want to be in bed at least. I mean, I hate 11 o'clock time. So midnight is like an energy spike in most, most people. So you want to be in bed at least an hour or two hours before that energy spike, because the way that I, I give my recommendation is every hour of sleep before midnight, healing wise is like two hours of sleep after midnight.

Because If you're asleep before that energy spike and you can time it where you're in deep sleep, then your body energetically is going to be able to get greater, deeper, restorative sleep. And, um, and that is really why my recommendation is during the winter time, it's nine, you know, nine to nine 30 [00:28:00] during the summertime, it's nine 30 to 10.

And if you, on the weekends, you go to bed later, You just want to be able to make that up either with a nap the next day or a nap sometime during the week.

Jacqueline: I was just gonna ask you, are naps necessarily then beneficial? Because again, there's a lot of, uh, nuance I feel like around that area. Some folks are like, no, completely avoid naps, but you're saying it doesn't necessarily 

Dr. Peter Martone: Well, 

Jacqueline: our, 

nighttime 

Dr. Peter Martone: here's, so when you're looking purely at sleep, people that need naps all the time, that's dysfunction, right? But if you have a schedule and you don't sleep one night, If I don't, it will not, if you're in a good circadian rhythm, you, I can nap for an hour in the morning, in the afternoon, your best time to take a nap is between noon and one o'clock and I can, I can take a nap right around that time and it doesn't affect my sleep because my circadian rhythm is so cyclical that I'm [00:29:00] using that nap to, to, um, you know, basically Make up the sleep that I lost over the weekend because you're not going to make it up at night Right?

It takes so long to make up that sleep. You know, it takes at least four or five days to make up a lost sleep during the weekend. So if you nap and then you catch up that night before, it's way, way healthier for you. So I like napping by a schedule. You shouldn't need to nap every day. I'm Italian. We took a siesta back in the day.

Um, you know, so, so I have no problems with napping as long as it's not affecting your nightly sleep pattern. So a lot of times people will nap and then they'll go to bed at midnight. Right? Like that's not healthy. And, but if you're using napping to make up sleep, that's been lost. That's effective.

Jacqueline: That's helpful. What about for folks who have problems falling asleep? So I obviously will have those nights. We all experience them, right? We're, we're in bed. It's [00:30:00] 930. You know, we go through our little routine, but we just can't fall asleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: You got to look at a few things first. Are you thinking because of the, the, the thinking brain will not fall asleep and because of your cross dominant avatar, your body loves to think it's an addictive time to think because you're basically shutting down the body, lowering the heart rate, lowering the blood pressure, lowering the respiratory rate.

And then your brain can think about everything. That's a problem. You can't think yourself to sleep. You can remember yourself to sleep. So if you remember something that happened in the past, like walking a golf course or walking around a lake or a swim or a party that you're at, you count the people and you remember that one event.

Cause your brain needs to be in control just based on the, the, the, the, the, the, what it takes to spin it. You can be in control of one of two things, thinking or remembering. So you can effectively put [00:31:00] yourself to sleep if you're remembering, not if you're thinking. So that's a good tip to be able to, if you can't get to sleep.

The second thing is if you have caffeine too late and something's elevating your heart rate, if your body's detoxifying, if you eat too late. So there are certain things that keep you out of that. That ability to have the melatonin naturally released between 9. So those are, those are different considerations to take.

Jacqueline: Speaking of melatonin, are you a fan, Dr. Peter, of sleep aid supplements? We hear a lot about, you know, magnesium, GABA, L theanine. What's your

take all of those? sleep aid that is not melatonin that produces sleep. I'm okay with. So for instance, something that calms your brain down, where, and I'm, we developed something that's called deep sleep. So just to give you an example, deep sleep will not knock you out. If you're getting knocked out, then your body is going to, you're going to drop through [00:32:00] that deep sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: And then you're going to pick up REM rebound at the end where you have these crazy dreams. So that is not healthy. It's like if you have alcohol, you have crazy dreams when you wake up. THC, crazy dreams towards the end, you're getting this REM rebound effect. You want something that, that, that supports the natural sleep cycles within the body.

Where you're in deep sleep, shallow sleep, deep sleep, shallow sleep. And your body should go through about four of those cycles, five, four to five of those cycles a night. So things that will support that, magnesium. I like L Arginine because L Arginine within the sleep supplement it. dilates your blood vessels.

And as long as you're sticking your hands and your feet out of the covers, your body will be able to cool out your hands and your feet and it drops your core temperature quickly. And then, you know, zinc and bees and, you know, different things that, that help your body support, either calming it down or slowing your heart rate down, different things like that.

Jacqueline: [00:33:00] Interesting. Are you a fan of, um, homeopathy?

Dr. Peter Martone: So, so you got homeopathy, you also have, uh, aromatherapy, things like that. Um, But we have to do these things with intention. So within our, within the way better sleep program, we talk about the anchors, the sleep anchors, you know, it's heart rate and respiratory rate and positioning and getting your out of your own head and timing certain anchors that we have within the program.

The protocol. But let's say we want to, like, what's one of the major things we need to do? Slow the heart rate, right? How do you slow the heart rate? You need to calm down. Well, what's the best way to calm down? It's let's say through meditation or relaxation techniques. So if you do that on a regular basis, and then you use a scent every time you do it, and you're focusing on slowing your heart rate, slowing your respiratory rates, which calms you down.

And then you [00:34:00] do that with the scent every time. Then at night, when you just use the center during the day, if you're anxious and you just use the scent, you're going to tie the subconscious brain into calming down. So that is aromatherapy with intention. Just to take something because you're trying to symptomatically affect the body and negative in one way, I do not agree with

Jacqueline: I have, um, you're gonna laugh, I probably have like 20 or so essential oils on my desk right now. I love lavender, and peppermint. Those are my go to's, but that's so spot on. I mean, if you use one at the same time for a certain ritual you're doing, it automatically puts your body back into that, that parasympathetic state, so I love 

Dr. Peter Martone: that's a great term, parasympathetic state. That's great. That's the vagus nerve. That's where everything lives.

Jacqueline: Right. I had a really great conversation with another chiropractor about, um, vagal nerve stimulation and how to help, a dysregulated nervous system. And I think there's a lot of crossover between some of those practices [00:35:00] too, and even assisting with sleep. Uh, so I find that super interesting, but you mentioned something before, was it called REM rebounding?

Was that the term you used? And you mentioned something about vivid dreams. So I, Dr. Peter. Always remember my dreams. I have very vivid dreams and again almost every morning. I remember what they are What does that mean? Is that a sign that I'm not getting very deep sleep? Like what what does that mean?

Dr. Peter Martone: not deep sleep necessarily, but it's your body is ramming towards the end of your sleep cycles. So, let me ask you a question. Do you wake up normally? Do you wake up with alarm? 

Jacqueline: It depends. I'd probably err towards 

normally, but it depends. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Are you going to bed late?

Jacqueline: Not not always around like 10 Last night was really early last night was like 830, but usually usually I'm in bed 

around 10 All right. And when you go to bed, are you able to fall right asleep?

Sometimes it's [00:36:00] within 10 minutes, sometimes it takes like 

45. Yep. And then do you wake up in the middle of the night?

Dr. Peter Martone: How often? Give me a percent.

Jacqueline: Like, like once. If I have like tea late at night and I'll have to go to the bathroom. But other than that, I sleep through the night. I don't wake up more than

once. 

Dr. Peter Martone: And then, um, So what, when you go to sleep, are you warm? Are you hot? Do you sweat? Like,

Jacqueline: No, I keep my apartment going back to cold temperatures at, you know, 68. Uh, cause I like to fall asleep in the, in the chillier weather, which I know is also more

beneficial. How often during let's say the week or the month do you wake up stiff?

Never Okay, good. Perfect. So one of the issues would could be with REM rebound is that you're, and then how many hours night do you sleep? So actually,

at least at 

least eight, Okay, good. So at least eight. So what about eight and a half?

Between, between eight and eight and a half.

Dr. Peter Martone: Okay, good. All right. So, so [00:37:00] typically what's ending up happening more than likely, actually, if you have your aura or like your, one of your sleep cycles, I do. hold it up to the screen and then I can

tell you. Yeah, because there are different, there are different reasons for different things.

Okay, move it over. All right, right there. All right. Um, Oh no, what I would need to see is when you. I go to the home page

because what we'll do here, I could now go now click on your sleep so I can see it now you have a really, okay. So you have a really good sleep pattern. So what's ended up, what's ending up happening there is you're dropping right down into deep sleep, which is what you want.

What's the timing of 

Jacqueline: um, 10, that was late. 10 43 is 

when I fell 

asleep and I 

Dr. Peter Martone: that is a So you're dropping down into sleep, you're getting a good deep sleep, and then you're coming out. So the end of your sleep cycle. So you're remembering your dreams. Right [00:38:00] in those last two. So, so if you notice your, those shallow dreams, see the, the white There. So those are your shallow dreams. That's really where you're in that, that comatose dream state where you're in shallow dreams. So you're remembering you're in this like little state. You want those as short as possible, those sub awake zones.

And, um, so when you're, when you're looking at that, those sub awake zones are the ones where your brain's active and it's actually registering in your conscious mind. And, uh, and you don't want to wake up out of one of those. So when you wake up, you don't want to have this. long thing because then you're waking up and you're going to remember that dream that you're waking up out of.

You're actually waking up out of a dream. You want that body to come out, be normal, and then your eyes just open up. So, so you're, you're holding onto that REM sleep a little bit longer. I'd like to see, I didn't even see how much REM sleep you get, but that's why.

Jacqueline: [00:39:00] How do I fix that?

Dr. Peter Martone: Um, now it's how you go to sleep. You're typically going to sleep with something on your mind.

And then your brain usually attaches to that thing. You need to work on relaxation, focusing on a memory, clearing your mind. If things are on your mind, you journal before sleep. You do, you dump dump those things out. You gotta like, clear the bucket. And because your brain's trying to rationalize it within a dream.

And it's just a tough, tough thing to do. Which is what happens 

Jacqueline: Yeah, see I'm gonna be diving into this but does my REM sleep is two hours and 

13 

Dr. Peter Martone: That's great. 

Jacqueline: was from 

Dr. Peter Martone: so you should be waking up and what's your HRV if you don't mind, go to your readiness,

Jacqueline: my HRV 

It says 

86. 

Dr. Peter Martone: great. So you are a super healthy individual, your core temperature is coming down. You're [00:40:00] doing really good. During the day, you should be pretty focused. So somebody that has that a d, d type of brain or that, that cross dominance requires a lot of rem and you that two, I get two hours of sleep of rem.

So that is really, really important. So you're, if you get a, if you get that REM and it's really short, you're gonna, your brain fogs are gonna be crazy that day.

Jacqueline: And higher HRV is

better, right? 

Ideally. 

Dr. Peter Martone: So you, that, that's your optimal eight 80. Uh, you, you're young. So 80 is good. Anywhere between 50 and 80.

Jacqueline: 94.

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, then that one is low. So it actually should depend on, I should say this. Your average is your best, right? So if you average 94, then you're going to be tired that Yeah. Interesting. Okay, cool. That makes sense. Wow. This is so, so insightful. I didn't even know that was like an area to click on on OuraRing. Again, I, I'd recently just got it. So I feel like there's so much data there that I still haven't yet to dive into, [00:41:00] but super, super interesting. Um, what are some of your other favorite sleep hacks?

Jacqueline: So again, I feel like there's all these. you know, things going around in the wellness space. What's noise versus what's truth? Like mouth taping. Is that something that is actually beneficial? 

Dr. Peter Martone: I feel suffocated when I multitape. 

Jacqueline: I feel like I would feel 

like that too. 

Dr. Peter Martone: So let's, let's think about like most of the stuff that we're, we're in this band aid society where we have a band aid for everything and where there's. A place to band aid? There's a, there's a solution. There is a band aid. Now, um, I, the reason why people don't sleep well, or they, they have airway management issues is because they've never been taught to breathe correctly.

We've never been, we've always been told go to sleep. We've never been taught how to sleep because nobody knows how to sleep. And we take for granted that it's just, we go to sleep, we close our eyes, we're going to wake up and feel like a pretty little flower, right? But that doesn't, That doesn't happen.[00:42:00] 

And, and the airway management is really super important, especially because I recommend, um, the corrective sleeping position is on your back with your neck into extension that opens up your airway. So you need to learn how to manage that airway. And I do it with either covers underneath my chin, between my chest and my chin.

And then I suck my tongue to the roof of my mouth, which expands my palate over a period of time because our bones are like clay, which is ultimately the way that we were supposed to breathe. When you're a mouth breather, you've never been taught to breathe correctly. Sinuses are caved in because you're sleeping on your side or on your stomach and it's pushing the side of your face in.

So if you ultimately look at somebody, And you look at facial disorientation, that's because you're a stomach sleeper, or that's because you're a side sleeper, because you're pushing the weight of your face against the pillow all night long in the, in your, in your caving in these maxillary sinuses. So [00:43:00] if you're just multi, yes, it's going to help you breathe out of your nose, which is a good start.

But we need to give people better rituals and habits to be able to teach them to be able to become a nose breather. So I think the gap of maltaping is not a bad idea, and then, you know, teaching proper breathing exercises when we're sleeping, that's really ultimately where the magic is. Oh,

Jacqueline: Awesome. Love that. All right. So mouth taping, we spoke about the importance of having the temperature in your room be colder is like 68 ideal. What's, what's an ideal temperature?

Dr. Peter Martone: so again, these are, I am, unfortunately I'm a thinker, right? I'm a thinker with ADD, which is the problem with the question, everything. And, and these things are ignoring, like, you can't just give somebody, whether it's 68, whether it's 65, whether it's 72, like it's ignoring so many other things that, that, that, [00:44:00] that play a much bigger role.

In sleep. So my answer to that question depends how much skin you want to have exposed. That's it, right? Because the body works 

under a thing that's called allostatic load or allostatic stress, which means we have hierarchy, hierarchies of systems that it wants to, the body wants to survive before it wants to thrive.

And if it's surviving, it's going to suppress thriving. A cell cannot be in. Survive and thrive at the same time. You're either surviving or you're thriving. So, we survive during the day, we thrive at night. That's the normal balance of what should happen. The systems of survival typically cardiovascular system, respiratory system, musculoskeletal, and metabolism.

Or body core temperature. The [00:45:00] body needs to maintain a core temperature of 98. 5 degrees on average. In drop from 98. 5 down to let's say 98. 3 in order to get good deep sleep. You're talking 98 degrees within the body. So that Delta, whether it's the Delta would be the body core temperature versus the room, whether it's 68, 69, 70, 71, 70, it really doesn't matter. It matters how you're using your covers and what you're exposing in the other lifestyle stresses. So

Jacqueline: right.

Dr. Peter Martone: that, that, that's not the right way to look at things. That's why it's such a, it is such a, um, uh, how do I say it?

Jacqueline: It's like too myopically focused where we ignore everything else. I hear 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. I'm 

Jacqueline: you. 

Dr. Peter Martone: too holistic in nature and look at the bigger 

Jacqueline: Right. 

Dr. Peter Martone: on, on that.

Jacqueline: Right. Well, ideally, chill your temperatures. You don't want to fall 

Dr. Peter Martone: There you go. Perfect. Yeah. 

Jacqueline: [00:46:00] Ha

Dr. Peter Martone: asleep sweating the exact temperature. Don't worry about but um, you want to make sure that you're caught like yours. You drop by 0. 7 degrees within that aura ring. You're dropping more than that. That's optimal. And you're dropping right into deep sleep.

Your core temperature is dropping so quick. Don't change anything. So whatever you're doing is right.

Jacqueline: Alright, good to hear. And we touched briefly on, on vagal nerve stimulation before, and I know that our vagus nerve controls 80 percent of the parasympathetic nervous system. So are there any ways we can help support it during sleep, outside of any of the practices that we already

covered? So just by, so the, the, the name of my practice is called Atlantis Island of Atlas Atlas is a top bone in the human body. When Atlas is out of alignment. It affects the function of the vagus nerve, which is like watering a garden, stepping on the garden hose. You're affecting vagal tone due to the loss of structure in your cervical spine.

Dr. Peter Martone: So just by [00:47:00] changing the way you sleep, by putting a pillow under your neck, letting the neck arch back, aligning that atlas, you're going to improve heart rate variability, which is ultimately vagal tone, by 20 to 30%. So you're going to improve your the function of your thrive nervous system and heal better at night by changing your structure by changing your position

Jacqueline: How long does that take? somebody Like, you, 

Dr. Peter Martone: it could happen. it could happen. within weeks and older individual. It happens longer just because they have a lot more arthritic change. And then, then my best thing, Google this woman. 45 ways to stimulate your Vegas nerve. Google it and pick five of those things and just do it.

That's it. There's grounding. There's, you know, temperature regulation, there's meditation, all of these things you can do. Tap on your carotid, you can, I'm sorry, your carotid, you can pull your [00:48:00] ear lobes. There's so many different things, but really when it comes down to it, you got to calm the mind down.

Jacqueline: of my favorites.

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah.

Jacqueline: And interestingly, I heard, I heard Dr. Axe share recently that ideally you don't want to take a cold shower after working out because it could actually cause like you to lose muscle mass, interestingly, which I never knew. But would you say that taking a cold shower before bed is ideal?

Dr. Peter Martone: With you, whatever you're doing is right. Right. With some people. So what causes the body stimulates the body to release melatonin? I think I had mentioned, I don't remember it was today with you, but recently I mentioned the

best, the, the, the, the, Best time to take a nap is between, let's say 1.

That's because the body has a natural drop in core temperature. Our core temperature drops again, you know, around 9, 9, well 9. 30 at night our [00:49:00] core temperature starts dropping. What stimulates the body to release melatonin is when your core temperature drops. So if you take a shower that's cold, you're going to stimulate, you're going to release the body when you relax to produce, to release melatonin.

If you take a hot shower and then you go into bed, the process of the body cooling really quickly. Also, you know, you know, uh, how's the body release melatonin. You do one of those things, see what works best for you.

Jacqueline: Interesting. And before you said you mentioned you're a fan of any non melatonin sleep aids. Can you touch on why? Particularly that is why you avoid 

recommend people take

Dr. Peter Martone: I specifically take melatonin if I'm traveling just because it's a little tough in time zone wise to be able to get your body regulated. So I will knock myself out and know that that is, you know, I'm just want sleep. I might not get good deep sleep, but I'll be able to make that up when I, uh, you know, when I get home.

But [00:50:00] the, um, I like things that kind of just support the natural body's rhythms to be able to calm down and put yourself softly into that parasympathetic stimulation. So things like magnesium and, and, you know, CBDs without THC and, you know, different, uh, different supplements like that, that, that allow the body to, um, to naturally relax.

Jacqueline: interesting. That makes sense. And one last thing. I'm really curious of your thoughts on Are there, or is there such a thing as sleep promoting foods? We hear a lot about foods rich in like tryptophan, which induces the state of relaxation. That's why they say Thanksgiving, that Thanksgiving turkey is super high in that, which is why people are often tired after that meal.

Plus, just because of all the other things they stuff themselves with. But are there any sleep promoting foods?

Dr. Peter Martone: here's the thing with Thanksgiving. First of all, you typically eat the meal a little bit earlier, right around noontime to one o'clock, you're getting a natural drop [00:51:00] in testosterone. Core temperature anyways. Actually, the food stimulates the, the core temperature stay elevated. Turkey has tryptophan in it, but not enough, you know, from the research I bounced off enough to really affect sleep in a, in a, in a major way.

Your bees are going to support it, you know, you thought, I mean, there's, you know, be to, to convert, to trip tryptophan, to kind of melatonin. You need specific vitamins, but just a well-balanced meal. The biggest thing is. One of the things that's going to keep you out of deep sleep or out of sleep is if you have low blood sugar levels.

So if you're eating really, really, really early and you're like, oh, I'm going to bed. I'm going to go to bed hungry because I know I'm not supposed to eat before I go to sleep. The best thing to do is a light carbohydrate with a fat on top of it, like a light gluten free piece of toast with some butter on it.

You know, something that doesn't create a lot of heat, but the carbohydrates really stimulate, um, it can stimulate you to sleep [00:52:00] well.

Jacqueline: But still three hours before

bed, right? 

Okay. Three and a half hours. Wow. That's so interesting. And again, you touched briefly before on alcohol, but this is an area where, again, I feel like not a lot of people realize what a havoc or what havoc that alcohol really does to our sleep. Can you just elaborate a bit on exactly

why, like, why alcohol impairs sleep, Puts you into a comatose sleep. It keeps you in that comatose sleep. Then you'll get re rebound at the end. You just don't get good deep restorative sleep. You don't go through the natural cycles. So yes, you might get eight hours of sleep or seven hours of sleep.

Dr. Peter Martone: You're just not, it's not good quality sleep.

Jacqueline: Yeah, and I think it's so funny too, because there's a lot of folks who say, Oh, that glass of wine will just, you know, help you

fall asleep. But it

actually, Yeah,

but not in the way we 

want it to, right? 

Dr. Peter Martone: no, absolutely 

Jacqueline: Well, Dr. Martone, this has been such a wonderful conversation. There's still so much to cover.

So I do hope to have you on again at some point. I do want to be [00:53:00] conscious of your time. Where can listeners 

find you? 

Dr. Peter Martone: They can go to Instagram and follow me at Dr. Sleep. Right, Dr. Sleep, right. Or they can go to Dr. Sleep right.com and take a free sleep risk assessment. Basically, how your sleep pattern is affecting your overall health and well being and then from there you can look at any sleep programs or products 

Jacqueline: I'm going to go ahead and take that sleep assessment. Although my sleep quality looks okay right now, so, but I do 

need to, I need to, change my, uh, positioning. That's one thing I'm going to be working 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, that'll uh, your positioning is going to be key because the positioning is going to align the structure and the structure is going to improve the neurology.

Jacqueline: Yeah, gotta get that pillow.

Dr. Peter Martone: Yes, you do.

Jacqueline: And my last question for you, Dr. Peter, is what does being well and strong mean to

you? 

Dr. Peter Martone: Being well and strong is a balance between Your emotional health, your financial health, and then your relationship health, right? So, I believe it's a, or your health, or your physical health overall. It's being able to [00:54:00] balance, like you have a lot of people that say, Oh, you know, I'm super successful, but their relationships are at risk.

Or they're, they're, they have great health, and then, you know, their emotional risk is, their emotional health is not, not where they want it to be. So it's balancing the full triangle. In, in focusing on what health means to you in all three dimensions. Family, relationship, social, emotional, and then physical.

Jacqueline: So important. Love that holistic view. Well, Dr. Peter, thank you so much for your time. I do hope to meet you at some point in person next time I'm in Massachusetts. I'm going to come 

pay you a visit. Absolutely, I look forward to it.