How To Be WellnStrong

34: Learning to Let Go & Cultivate Emotional Intelligence | Shad Berry

• Jacqueline Genova • Episode 34

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Emotional intelligence is defined as the ability to perceive, express, and regulate our emotions. It’s a skill that requires constant work, but one that acts as a superpower, profoundly improving how we navigate challenges, opportunities, and even relationships. Join me today as I speak with Shad Berry about how we can grow in emotional intelligence to lead a more integrated, balanced, and grounded life, and no longer be ruled by anxiety, insecurity, people-pleasing, image management, and shame.
 
What you'll learn from this episode:

  • Powerful tools to help you cultivate sustainable habits that increase peace in your life
  • How to surrender our need for control & let go of ego
  • The transformative power of practicing stillness and being silent
  • Strategies to help us overcome rumination about the past, and placing our identity in Christ to truly experience fulfillment
  • & So much more!

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*Unedited Transcript*

Shad Berry
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[00:00:00] 

Shad Berry: Hello, Jacqueline, how are

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: Good, how are you?

Shad Berry: Doing well.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: In full transparency, I first came across you after hearing your interview with Chris Wark and it really touched me.

And I immediately thought that my listeners, as well as myself, could really benefit from your wisdom and your guidance. So I reached out over Instagram.

Glad that you answered, and I'm, I'm really honored to be chatting with you today.

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: Yeah, thank you for, I'm glad, I'm glad to, it's always good to hear that you never know who's listening. I mean, you, you appreciate it. You never quite know how things land with people. We've gotten some good feedback from that. interaction with Chris and, so really glad you reached out. Love, love the opportunity to, hopefully encourage people 

You're creating a good framework to do that.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: Absolutely. And it's funny because I think most of my podcast episodes thus far have really focused on the physical aspect to health and healing, but there's so much more to that, right? Emotionally, mentally, [00:01:00] and that's really an area that I'm most interested in. So as we head into the new year and folks are out there making their resolutions and their new habits, I figured it'd be a good time to dive into some of that.

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: It's absolutely vital. Obviously our head, hands, and hearts are integrated. We're a, we're a whole human and not, not these independent parts. Yeah, seeing all that as one system is really, really important.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: Absolutely. Well, Shad, you have quite an incredible mission with your ministry, and I know that was born from your own personal healing and growth journey. With that, could you maybe give us the Spark Notes version of essentially how you found yourself in the counseling space?

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: Yeah. I tell people I did not walk into counseling voluntarily. I was pushed into it, so to speak. I think life has a way, and I'll talk about often the performance based identity. And so I would, I would describe myself as [00:02:00] having lived by a performance based identity. And that's a, that's a research based term that if you help me remember, I'll come back to, but the performance based identity has a shelf life.

And we're all going to hit it in some way, shape or form because we're not made to transcend humanity. We're not made to get so powerful that we have all the control that we aspire to or fantasize about having, where we can will things to happen. And for my journey, I was very hardworking.

I was very committed. I was very diligent. I was very I'd get up early, I'd stay up late. I just, it was the grind vibe, just, just doing what needed to get done, outworking outpacing and and also, I jokingly say that we, for my family, the younger you were when you did something, the sweeter it was supposed to be, so there was this sense of urgency that it had to happen.

Sooner. And when I was, the youngest, this and the youngest of that, I'm, I'm the youngest of eight kids and I all of us play a musical [00:03:00] instrument. My dad launched a family band, the Berry family band, where we were the, world's largest big band consisting of one family. And I, Jacqueline just so your listeners will be impressed was according to my father, the world's youngest trumpet player in a big band consisting of one family.

So it was like, that was, it really started at an early age that I blew my first note when I was three that I. Got married at 20, got a house at 21, got, first kids at 21, 22. And so it just was like this toward pace. So I say all that to say like, it was untenable or in the words of like AA or ACA the recovery community, it was unmanageable.

The proverbial kind of straw that broke the camel's back was that my wife, one, I was working on our family business and I decided to leave that context and that was a very relationally challenging experience. My wife also had simultaneously had our second miscarriage. We have four kids, we had six pregnancies, two of [00:04:00] those ended in miscarriage, and this one was particularly bad.

She had a uterine infection. Really could have cost her life if things had progressed in a negative direction. Thankfully, she recovered and was okay, but we realized, we may we wanted to expand our family, so we decided to go through an adoption process. And the for those who, some of y'all, some of your listeners will be familiar with with that journey, but we, it was a pretty long journey.

It started out as an international adoption, then we shifted to domestic adoption, and and I'm terrible with timeframes. My wife always corrects those dates, but it was a couple of years. Let's just put it that way before a birth mom actually chose us. And the two years of waiting was really, , the anticipation.

All the while, I would have said, I would say that after the miscarriage and leaving the family business, we were really, really depleted and did not know it. So looking back, we were depressed. We were anxious we were, and there was a part of us that was like once this adoption goes through, then [00:05:00] everything will like we just have to, this just has to be the thing because this is what we're pursuing and have our hearts set on and felt like we've been called to.

And, and as the story goes and our experience goes we were finally selected by a birth mom who was due in a month. And a month after we had met her, she went into labor. We went to the hospital. We were there for the whole time. And I, and I, sometimes I share this part, the kind of the intimate detail was like, I was really afraid that I would feel differently about my adopted son than I did about my biological children.

And so I really prayed intently that I would, it would be bone in my bone, flesh in my flesh. And it was when we first met him and held him. It was like this, this beautiful experience that this was my son. Four days later, we got to take him home from the hospital and he got to meet him, introduced to him, to our families and friends who had been, along this journey with us for a pretty long time.

And, and in the state of Tennessee, the birth mom has 10 days to revoke her right of surrender from the day you leave the hospital. And [00:06:00] so on the ninth day I had we, I was in my office and got a phone call, , from the adoption agency. , And I had this, this sickening sense that they were going to tell me what I most feared, which was that the birth mom had changed her mind.

And, and in fact, that's what they told me. And it was just the, the, we use language like a punch to the gut, a slap to the face, a stab in the back, which, we try to use human experiences to describe pain because that's the best we can do to describe internal. And that's what it was.

It was I use the language. It was like calluses being torn from my hand and that raw flesh. And, And I, and I call it a severe mercy. It was severe because it was super painful. It was merciful because it woke me up. I was in a state of denial that I didn't know. I didn't know. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have said I'm in denial of what, what am I denying?

Well, I had been in denial of the fact that life had gotten to me, that, that I was not bigger than life. I was not more powerful than life. And I needed help. Like that was the big admission was like, I can't fix this. And some, and the other part that I thought was [00:07:00] really transformative was my hope and prayer had been that I would not feel differently about my adopted son and then I, then my biological kids.

And what I realized was there's no way to love fully. Like, to really, truly love sincerely and escape pain. That my prayer had been answered, not in the way that I wanted it to be answered. So it felt like a death, and it was a death. It was a death of a dream. It was a death of a vision. It was a death of a hope.

It was a death of a relationship, but nobody died. So that was a very confusing experience, but like, to realize that if I was going to allow myself to care, If I'm going to allow myself to live with a passion for anything, then that means I'm going to attach to people, places, and things that serve that mission, which also means guess what?

It's going to hurt a lot. And and that has been, that this is the the kind of the unconventional [00:08:00] motivational speech of the day is like, let's go suffer together. And like, it's, it's like, it is, it is more inspirational than motivational because so that was my journey. Like, so I started seeing a counselor, Tim Holler, who was my counselor for a couple of years, became a friend and then became a business partner at Kardia.

And he God used him to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, and to really start to show me the elements of my humanity. But I just had no, I just had no concept of or context for this whole realm of human emotions in my limbic brain. And so that, that really, I gave you a really long answer to that very that wasn't the Spark version, I'm sorry.

But, but anyway, it's really, it, it, it touches on some of the things I think that we're going to be getting into.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: No, that was that was beautiful Shad. And I mean, as you were telling that story, there were so many themes that resonated with myself to one of which was, being content in the waiting season, ? And I feel like so many people today have this sense of [00:09:00] I will be happy when right when I hit that goal, when I make X amount of money.

And I think like the irony is that life. is waiting, right? Like, for the most part of our lives, we are in that waiting season, and it's learning how to be content in that waiting season and rely on God and the control aspect, right? I mean, I myself, it's funny, I feel like our conversation is going to be more of a, a therapy session for myself, but even too with me, I mean, the older I get, the more I, I'm starting to see, I guess, habits in myself.

are not the healthiest, one of which is that need for control. And I've noticed, Shad, that in areas of my life where I feel like I'm out of control, ? Like my mom's health, for example, , but that is an area that I've learned is completely out of my control, right?

Her life is in God's hands. But interestingly, I've started to notice that . I tend to channel that control in other places of my life, right, and I put, like, extra control on having [00:10:00] everything be perfect in another form, whether that be my business or my friendships 

and with that, I'm really trying to figure out, you know, how do you, how do you properly channel that? And I'm sure you've experienced this. It sounds like we have similar personalities, but What are your thoughts on that?

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: So I think one of my major realizations and themes has become surrender, freedom and surrender. If that were a mantra of because I'm trying to, I'm in a constant tension. And I don't want to present myself as having escaped any of these things. Like this is not, Oh, this is where I used to be.

This is where I am. So as a human, what I, what I am destined for is struggle. And the waiting you described is, is surrendering in the struggle that I am in an active. Healthy struggle to live fully. It's rooted in this, this deep desire to live, to connect, to attach, to be secure. [00:11:00] And so when I am, when I am trying to control, I'll use the expression often that the workload is not what kills us.

We go around often citing how busy we are, how much there is to do, how much I have to get to. There's not enough hours in the day, which is really a victimhood way of seeing life. And it's not all that you have to do that's killing you. It's trying to control everything. Control my image, control what people think of me, control what I look like, control how I compare, control outcomes.

And so it's really the art of living. I think the wisdom of living is knowing what to surrender. And that's what, that's the beautiful part of the serenity prayer that we cite in our, in our, in our groups often of grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change. the courage to change what I can and the wisdom to know the difference.

And that goes on. That's the most popular part of that prayer. But what you're describing [00:12:00] in, contentment, surrender, acceptance is really probably the operative word of accepting. And accepting is not resignation either. It's, it's really important to differentiate these terms. When I surrender, I'm surrendering what's outside of my control and ultimately my responsibility.

anD, and I'm trusting that there's something, someone, a higher power, more, bigger than myself, that sees more than I see, that cares more than I realize, that can be with me in this, the fear. Because it is scary. Like, it's never not scary. Doing this is scary. Like, like, doing anything that you care about is, is going to come with some level of fear.

Yeah, the, the control mechanism that attempts to reach beyond my grasp, and then the, the, the really The really detrimental part of that cycle is that then I judge myself for not being superhuman. 

So I'm demanding the impossible. Then I'm judging [00:13:00] myself based on an impossible standard. And so then I'm intolerant or have contempt.

for myself as a human in my limitation. And that's what keeps us sick. Like that's what keeps me doing because then I have, how do I cope with that? Well, I have to pretend to be more than I am. I have to lie about what I have or don't have. I have to hide what I really am. And now, now we're, now we're into this whole era arena then of why are we so anxious?

Well, that's why. Because it's not enough, like to be a human sized human is not enough. I've got, somehow, I've got to be a super sized human. Or, the flip side of that coin, we also see people go sub human. So I either have to become a super sized human or I go sub human. And I'm like, I'm just terrible at everything.

I've never been good at anything. Jacqueline, you're great. Look at all the stuff you do. You've just got all these gifts and skills, and you have all these people that like you, and I just don't. So then we get into this really death spiral so it's, there's, there's two sides of how we respond [00:14:00] to that, but yeah, control is a killer.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: Yeah. Just tactically, Shad, like, what are some things that people can do, like, behaviorally, even if that's just Again, like a mindset shift, just strategies that people can use to help alleviate that, that burden.

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: Yeah. I think if I can take us back a bit to, to go backwards before we go forward on that question. One of the things that we, emphasize a lot in our coaching work and our counseling, , it seems to me that we have what, the, the, the phrase emotional intelligence gets thrown a lot in my circles and business circles and leadership communities.

And emotional intelligence really by definition and practice is my ability to identify Name and express what's happening inside of me limbically, neuroscience tells us that that your limbic brain is where your emotions live. It's fully developed when [00:15:00] we're born. It doesn't have a voice and it doesn't know time.

So your limbic brain doesn't care whether it was five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 25 years ago that you experienced some pain or fear or traumatic event. It just knows that. We don't want to feel that again. Like, so you've got these emotions and the best way we, and, and literally. We're made to think, we're made to feel before we're made to think cognitively.

Your neocortex, the frontal lobe, the Einstein brain, that's developed much later in earlier in women, later in men, but that's where voice comes from. That's where measuring consequence. So one of the, one of the greatest gifts. that I think we can offer other human beings that helps them join the human race is to give them the gift of their emotions.

, because we spend so much energy trying to avoid what we think is negative. , I, , I'm an Enneagram seven. I'm a enthusiast. I'm a believer. I'm an, I'm [00:16:00] activistic. So like, I, I want to avoid pain and sadness. as much as possible. I want pleasure and I want to multiply, multiply it. If it, if it's good once it's good a thousand times, , the more the better, which is not always true.

So I think, I think one of the first steps for anybody is to really find a way to identify and name what you're actually feeling. And appreciate that as a gift. Right? Those are gifts. If we accept them and take responsibility for them, if I live in denial of them, then they become impairments. And so it's going back to that whole concept of control, that when I'm trying to control and live in denial, then I have to do something to cope.

with that denial to keep, to keep me in it, , versus surrendering to the reality that life hurts. It's lonely. It's sad. I can feel [00:17:00] shame and guilt and gladness all at the same time. And those be all appropriate things. that mean I'm actually living versus those being negative things about me that I have to avoid.

So I, I, I wanted to say that before I talked about any practical steps, because I can use these practical things, as other ways to try and mask. what's really going on if I don't accept the invitation to show up as a human. So when I meditate or when I do, when I'm getting ready to do ice baths with Chris or when I'm doing uncomfortable things or workouts, like, I was like, man, I'm scared to do this.

I don't want to do this alone. Will you do this with me? Like I won't get in an ice bath by myself. Like I will only do that right now if somebody is doing that with me. And it's incredible. And I know it's beneficial, but like, there's just, nothing in me that wants to do that solo. So being able to say man, I'm scared.

I really want to do this. My anger is more passion. My passion is bigger than my fear. And enjoy the relational component [00:18:00] of that. Yeah. So I think that's a really, if you find yourself in any way, shape, or form, if you struggle to express your emotional, your interior world in a way that is responsible, then that's where I would guide you toward really focusing some of your attention and time and care that you might receive.





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shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: And then of course, there's, we can certainly dive into that more if you want to, or, or, in some of those other practical steps,

but those, those oxygenate, those emotions will oxygenate and hydrate, whatever other steps you're doing. To, stay connected to yourself, God, and others.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: That makes complete sense. And before we jump into the actual strategy, Shad, one thing that kept popping up as you were talking is, my dad would always tell me, he's like, emotions are not rational, they just are. It's okay to feel them, right? And I think too, I mean, we've all suppressed emotions at some [00:19:00] point or another, whether that's sadness or grief, but again, through actually addressing them, right, and really understanding why we're feeling what we're feeling, that's how we're able to overcome them.

And even too, I've noticed that sometimes like emotions, they mask each other in the sense of anger could actually be a camouflage for fear, right? Because it's easier to be angry than to admit someone hurt us. And I only came to that realization through actually being able to experience one of the feelings I had and really get to the root and say, where is this stemming from?

And now whenever I'm, around a situation that may perhaps in the past have been triggering, I'm not triggered anymore, right? I don't feel those emotions that arise. because of identified the source. And the irony is that's, that's what holistic medicine is too, right? It's addressing a disease at the root.

So definitely a lot of synergies here, but it's, it's so important.

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: Well, in the [00:20:00] so this whole idea of control and, and one of the resources, one of my mentors, a guy named Dr. Chip Dodd, who's in Nashville, he wrote a book called Voice of the Heart, and it's a resource I lean heavily into, and, so, in his, in his model, each of these core eight feelings have a gift when expressed and taken responsibility for, and they have an impairment when denied.

Control, anxiety, and rage are all impairments of fear. So when I'm trying to control things, when I'm aware that I'm trying to control something or someone then I'm aware that what am I actually, like asking myself the question, what am I afraid of? And, and so then I can actually identify what am I responsible for and what do I have to, what risk is there right now that's at stake?

Right? That I'm leaning into because some of the fears are like some fears are very rational. They're very legitimate. There are things I want my kids to be afraid of that, every stranger that wants to give you candy is not your friend. Being afraid lead the gift of fear is faith and wisdom.[00:21:00] 

And so we, you point, you pointed out the anger using that rage and anger. are two very different things. Rage is me raging against my fear because I don't have tolerance for it. Whereas anger is my passion for something that is more important to me than the pain I will experience when I pursue it.

Everything you teach, everything you're describing, everything you stand for is calling people, inviting people to do things that are inconvenient, that are more important than the inconvenience. I don't have time to meal prep. I don't have time to research. I don't have time to slow down. I don't, or whatever the case may be, you're saying you are worth more than that and your future self, and the benefits that your future self will derive, are worth the sacrifice today.

It's, it's a, it's, it's beautiful. Like, it really makes, it really animates my heart and life, I think when we're able to connect in those terms.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: And I think the irony too, is that again, so many of us are focused on [00:22:00] like the immediate gratification, right? Of eating that donut, eating that cookie. I don't want to go to the gym. I want to eat past seven o'clock at night. And again, it's recognizing what are you doing for yourself now that's going to benefit your future self, right?

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: Yeah, and I, and if I can just, just add to that we're seeking relief. When I'm in denial of the inevitability and inevitability of pain, then we live in a world that, because we are so well resourced and affluent nationally, we have at our disposal endless mechanisms to relieve our discomfort. So we literally can amuse ourselves to death.

We can protect ourselves to death. We can, we can insulate and we can relieve and alleviate and medicate all of these little discomforts and, and they never are satisfying. They're never gratifying, but they are effective in the short term. And so really for people to think, [00:23:00] am I trying to relieve this or am I taking responsibility for it?

, and that really is a step toward. Taking responsibility for my own well being, for my own health, for my own relationships. Instead of life happening to me, it's happening for me. It's moving me towards something, someone, , something bigger than myself, moving me. Yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's a really important point of immediate gratification is really just saying, it's just the, the, the, the infant inside of me that's saying, I want it now.

I want, I want relief now. Because the waiting and the struggling and the suffering in between is, is, feels unbearable, but it's not. 

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: Yeah, 

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: Yeah,

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: I mean, this leads us to what we were chatting about before in terms of actual strategies, right, that we can use to help us express our emotions in a healthy manner. I mean, I feel like too much of anything is not necessarily good, and I think it's really interesting that, [00:24:00] I've heard of situations where people, I guess transition their addictions from, drugs and alcohol to becoming, extreme exercisers.

And I mean, how do you reconcile that? And again, like, what are some healthy outlets to relieve, those pent up emotions without going overboard?

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: well, it's a little counterintuitive because we tend to think of, when we think about emotionally expressive people, we are typically characterizing. People operating in an impaired state. So we, because it's so rare to see people talking in their about their emotions or expressing emotions in a healthy, responsible way, , we have more examples of.

What would feel like more self pity or more rage or more denial. Putting yourself in circles and spaces and places where that's done responsibly is a, is a great way to practice being being attentive or becoming [00:25:00] more attuned would be the, the appropriate word. So that, that would be one, one element.

I think the other, the other really important piece is. Recognizing where am I, where am I limited? What are my, what am I, what are my limitations? When I'm thinking in terms of becoming overwhelmed when I think in terms of people burning out what we're, what we're saying is you haven't burned out, your ego has.

The false self of who you thought you had to be and how you thought you had to perform has reached its limitation. It's predictable. It's well, it's a well worn path. Millions and millions of people have tried it before me and failed. So it's wild. I think it's going to be any different for me. And this is really in the maybe not as practical as you might be thinking at the moment, but like when, When I do my own story work, when we invite people, Dan Allender has a great book called To Be Told, and I think it's a great introduction to helping people [00:26:00] appreciate why your story matters.

Because a lot of my ego, which is the false self that I feel like needs, it's the more presentable version of myself that I think is more acceptable. And so that ego has to die. In order for me to actually live, but that ego served you for a period, like it protected you from something. It insulated you and it served you until it doesn't.

So you being able to identify and name and describe that ego state, like Who is that? What are they, what are they needing? What are they wanting? What are they afraid of? Because it's really self protective. So I think finding pathways to reconnect with because your ego is, is a response, a defense mechanism responding to things that have actually, that you have experienced that you may have minimized or determined.

didn't really matter but they actually do. So, uh, that would be another maybe [00:27:00] more of a therapeutic realm. I think and, and really practically, because, because so much of what, so much of what has aided me has been relationally centered, Jacqueline. Like, the greatest antidote, the two greatest antidotes to anxiety is intimacy, relationally.

And I don't mean romantic. I'm just saying like connection, human, heart to heart, connected, connectedness and gratitude. And so when I'm, because here's, here's what happens. Here's what we do to ourselves. I, my, my ego can't have an intimate relationship or friendship with someone else's ego. It's, it's fake and everybody knows it.

It's a facade. It's not real. We're hiding pieces of ourselves. And by the way. I don't need to have that deep of a relationship with thousands of people. I need like three or four and I am blessed to have many.

So that, in terms of what can I do best for myself and This ties back to where I started on the [00:28:00] performance based identity

There was a, there was a study done with Olympic athletes, Ben Holberg, did this research, and these were D one or Olympic level athletes that had performed at a high level, and they did a, they did a study on how, how they fared. after they retired from their sport. So some were thriving, some were struggling, some were depressed, some were, married, families successful.

And he was like, what, and he was a D1, he ran Olympic trials, 



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shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: so at a high level. And so he was like, what's the difference? And there were a few, and I won't go into all of it, but there were a few key differentiators between those who were doing well and those who were not. Those who were, who had a.

performance based identity live their life where their self worth was contingent upon their performance. So I have self worth if. The real hallmark differentiator between the two groups Of purpose based versus performance based was the nature of their relationships. [00:29:00] So the athletes who were doing really well post sport had relationships that were not connected to their sport.

So they had relationships that were not contingent on their performance at all. Meaning the, performance based identities, all the relationships were agents and trainers and co athletes and teams. So they had all this community. But it was very dependent on, did they perform well enough to stay in that community?

The purpose based identity had the acceptance and the belonging, the mattering and belonging, which are the two greatest human needs, that they mattered and belonged to people where their performance was not a prerequisite to mattering and belonging. That's a game changer. Like, if you, if you and I know that we can go out and do courageous, scary things where we'll be vulnerable and our social self will be subject to judgment, but we know we have a place that we can return to where we matter and belong, regardless of whether we got our teeth kicked in [00:30:00] or whether we actually excelled, that they won't, they won't love us more for excelling and they won't love us less for failing.

Like, that's, that's the secret sauce. Anyway, I've got to do the internal, the journey in, so that I can also do the journey out. And the more I journey in, then the more I have to offer the people, the more I have with them, the more I can contribute to the people I want to journey out with.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: Absolutely. And, I mean, it just goes back to the point of where do we put our identity in, right? And I think today, especially, People, again, put their identity and their career, their wealth, their, accomplishments, how many books they've written, and I think that, at the end of the day, leads to emptiness, right?

And we look at the Bible, I mean, Solomon, who was the wisest man in the world, acquired essentially all of this wealth. At the end of his life, what was his conclusion? Everything turns to dust, life is empty, the only thing that matters is God. And again, he had it all. Even for me, I always remind myself [00:31:00] my worth is not based on my performance because, you're only as good as your last show, right?

You're only as good as your last episode. If you put your identity in Christ, everything else just is a plus. It's just the icing on the cake. So I, I truly love 

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: yeah. yeah. And Chip, one of his favorite expressions is that on our best day, we are all giraffe on ice, which is actually the password to my Wi Fi if you're ever at my house. Just as a reminder, and his, you get the word picture, right? You picture this giraffe just clumsy, slipping, sliding all over.

It's not made to be on ice, but to your point, If my identity is contingent upon how well I thought I did, which is extremely subjective, then I don't have the freedom to practice being human. Like to just like In yoga, we're practicing yoga. In medicine, they're practicing medicine. In law, they're practicing law.

We build financial advisory practices. Like, it's, it's okay for you to [00:32:00] practice, and we always, the expression progress over perfection. That I am making progress and my identity is never at risk. So yeah, it's, it's absolutely 

absolutely vital.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: One thing you touched on too, Chad, that I think is really important that I wanted to emphasize with anyone listening is the importance of your inner circle. And for me personally, I would probably say I have about three friends who I know if I called at 2 a. m. in the morning, they would pick up.

These are friends that have known me before I even started Well and Strong, they know my faults, they know my flaws, they've seen me cry. And again, I just think it's really important to be very protective of that inner circle. And we've heard across the board from, many, many successful people that you essentially become who you surround yourself with, right?

So could you just touch on again, like the importance of, of having a, an inner circle with people that you can just be real and honest with?

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: yeah. So this, this gets into the practical [00:33:00] part too, of like, because, because we are progressing, right? We went through this, my internal world, what am I feeling, my limbic brain, my expression of that, and then the, who do I trust that with? Not everyone is worthy of being trusted with those pearls that, that, the most intimate, scary, shameful parts of our life, right?

So really finding, and, and, and the, the truth is 99. 9 percent of the world does not care what happens to you. It's, it's my job to find the 0. 01 percent that do. And when, so now when I can create a norm, what, when, when I can create an environment where vulnerability is. And what does that mean? So this we haven't touched on this, but, but you've, you've alluded to it of this, what really is the emotion of shame or toxic shame.

The thing that keeps me from sharing some of the most embarrassing or what I think are the most shameful parts of me would be [00:34:00] toxic shame. Toxic shame says that I have to become more than human in order to matter and belong. So like I said earlier, it means I have to hide things from the people I care the most about which is what exhausts us.

So for me to be able to have, and I'm, I'm similar and, and I, I have attempted. I'm not a big believer in the word balance. Like I just don't know that that's attainable, but I do love the word rhythm. Cause balance implies that I have some control. I mean, life, life kicks me off balance routinely.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: So true. I never 

thought of it like that. 

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: yeah, it's, it's the whole life on life's terms. It's like, my son's getting his wisdom teeth out today, five days before Christmas, three days ago, that was not supposed to be happening. It's like. Okay. My, my plans have changed our plans. His Christmas gonna look different. So like life is always doing things that that's what's, that's what's supposed to happen.

Instead of it being like, can you believe that? So for me to be able to have people where I create this rhythm of connection with where [00:35:00] I have a handful of friends. Now I use an app called Voxer a lot. It's a, it's a walkie talkie app and some people love it, some people hate it, but so I have some groups with friends where I can vox real time.

Like this just happened. I feel anger and hurt and sad and lonely. I'm afraid. And also knowing what I need, like I don't need anybody to solve that. It's unsolvable. I just need to know that I'm not alone in it. I just need people to hold it with me that can contain it and not judge me for being afraid or not judge me for being mad or resentful.

Like so man, like if you can find, and they are, when you find them, they are, Absolute Treasures because they, they keep me, they, they help me stay grounded and present so that I can keep looking, so I don't try to make my world small. If I didn't have that, I would make my life much smaller and because That's the other response to control.

When I can't [00:36:00] control the bigger world, what do I do? I have to keep making my world smaller until I get it small enough to where I feel safe and we're not made to live that way. We wither and die in isolation. Nothing good happens in isolation. So yeah, you're, you're spot on. That's why I love some of these tools like Voice of the Heart.

There's a book called People Fuel. I keep some of these, I keep handy. People Fuel, John Townsend Chip Dodd, Voice of the Heart. I can send links to these, but those are, yeah, those are two great resources to help me put language to what am I, what am I feeling emotionally. And what am I needing relationally?

Cause, cause all of our deepest needs are met in relationship. Townsend calls them relational nutrients. It's oxygen and water. So if I'm cut off from those things even you'll, you'll, you'll be interested in this and you may already know this research for people that have been in outer space, for people that have been in research projects and isolation in Antarctica, Antarctica, that's tough to say, people that have been in nursing homes.

For extended period of time in isolation, their brains [00:37:00] literally shrink.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: Wow.

shad_berry_raw-audio_riverside_0318-CLEANED: Like, it, it literally shuts down your, the gray matter in, in your brain. Your brain literally gets smaller when you're in extended period of isolation. For infants and for seniors, they call it failure to thrive. It's, it's a big deal.

It really is life, it really is life and death.

Jacqueline: Yeah, no, that's so interesting., and also, too, I think it's important to recognize that in an age of social media where we seemingly have all this connection, right?

People have thousands and thousands of friends, thousands of followers. You can still have that and be lonely, right? And I think we also, we live in an age where, like, depth is lacking a lot. 

And, yeah, I mean, social media, it's, it's, it's good, it's a double edged sword.

That's how I'd 

describe 

Shad Berry: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It's a tool, but it's not a substitute. Really great point. I love this conversation. The difference between a dream and a fantasy a fantasy is a picture of the future where, , life works without risk or [00:38:00] pain. That's a, it's a fantasy because it's not attainable.

A dream Martin Luther King had a dream, not a fantasy yet. He knew that it was going to cost him a lot and it did. Anybody that's ever done anything of substance and of note big or small, There's been a cost to it and risk associated with it. And I'm using some extreme examples, but sometimes it's, much smaller and less obvious than that.

So the fantasy of that my, my connections relationally can be substituted for a, , a digital, meta type virtual universe, is extremely misleading and misguided and dangerous because we have the appearance of relational connectivity without the substance of it. So it, it's really what we would call satiation.

It, it satiates, it's, it scratches the surface of like, Oh, I had a good, meaningful human interaction. But to your point, I [00:39:00] can still be very lonely because I was not as known. I was, part of me was known, but there, but I also need to be known more fully. I don't know that we can ever be fully, I don't even fully know myself, but like we can be more fully known.

Right. When, when I'm in a relationship with someone and I have not had to edit what's true about me. And they accept me. Now I'm getting nourished. If I'm in a relationship with somebody and I'm, and I have had to significantly edit and hide big parts of myself, I am not getting nourished because I know that there's parts of me that are still yet deeply hidden.

I know that I am as, I'm accepted, I'm as accepted as to the degree that I've been able to bring myself to them. It can be, I can be in a room full of people around tons of individuals that claim to love me and still be very, very isolated and very, very [00:40:00] alone because I'm not actually known in the, in the social In that social context.

So it's a, yeah, good point.

Jacqueline: Yeah, that could be a whole episode but I mean, and also too, I mean, social media just feeds ego, right? Like, that's, that's the whole point of it. It's what am I doing? What, what did I have to drink this morning? I mean, quite honestly, I, I deactivated my personal social media accounts a few years ago, and I, I rarely, rarely go on them.

But I'm pretty active on Well and Strong because I like to create more than consume. So to your point about, it being a tool, it can be a tool for good, right? But again, it's, it's within your, your control and within your power of how often you use it, how you choose to use it, what you choose to consume.

Shad Berry: I mean, and this, yeah, really good point. And, and I love the, the purpose, there is purpose for what you're describing of how you're using it with purpose and intention. Going back to my emotional [00:41:00] state, am I aware when I am becoming more anxious? Am I aware when I'm using, like, am I using it as a mechanism or a means to numb myself?

And am I aware and attuned to what's actually happening inside of me and what it's, how, what it's tempting me to think or believe or act or behave? Or am I using it with purpose and intention? I mean, there's obviously, obviously I love seeing my friends and. People I know and other resources on there and, and celebrating those things.

The hobbies I enjoy to engage in, and I'm also aware of like, when I start feeling You know, awful about myself and judging myself with contempt over going like, take a step back, put it down, figure out what's going on. , and, and I'd add that to this whole you've asked me, and I don't know if I've actually answered your question fully, but like practical habits of, the three S's, which we typically are awful at, is the solitude, silence, and stillness. , That is just a lost art that historically, I think, has [00:42:00] been more, more embedded in our culture. And so it's like, we, we, we try to remedy our exhaustion often by speeding up the treadmill versus getting off of it. So I'm so tired. I need this thing to go faster. It's like, I don't, I don't, I don't think that's the way.

So like, do I, do you have a practice of being with yourself? Just being by yourself. And that doesn't mean you're on your phone. That doesn't mean you're on your devices. That doesn't mean you're reading anything. It's like, can I just be with myself? Solitude is an intentional aloneness. Like I'm going to go because you do have a relationship with yourself.

And I think that's probably one of the core messages here is, getting in touch and attuned with your own emotional state is really about my relationship with me stewarding. All that I am and have, and am, am trusted to me. So yeah, I think those practices of just being, still being silent, I try to go to a, to an abbey about two times a year where it's [00:43:00] three days of silent.

And I'm a, as you can tell, I'm a talker. And everybody was like, you are not gonna be able to do that. And I, I go there and I will sleep for 11 hours. Like where I've got no technology, nobody to talk to, nobody to interact with. And it is the best. It's like my body craves it. Like I start craving it now.

Like I feel my self needing it. And so just having, , a practice of that as part of your rhythm, I think is really vital.

Jacqueline: There's a retreat. Vipassana? Have you heard of that? It's essentially, like, a 10 day retreat where people just go and they just, again, they sit in silence. They meditate. You're not allowed to have your phone or anything, any other distractions. I don't know if I could do 10 days.

I don't even know if I could do two days, 

Shad Berry: You could. Yeah, you could. I mean, it's like it stillness is actually harder for me than silence. Being still, took some getting used to because I do like to be active and move, but but [00:44:00] your, your body needs it. So it's, it's like when you're, when you're giving yourself something that your body needs, it's like, it says, thank you.

so Being, and if, yeah, you could, you could do it. And, and for everybody listening, like, don't, don't feel like you have to go do a multi day. Try it for an hour, try it for four hours, try it for a day, practice some level of Sabbath, some level of cessation from work.

Pay attention to how compulsively I reach toward things just like without thinking about it like, what's that about?

Like I wonder, what would come up in me if I didn't reach for that now? And it might be painful, but it, but might be worth it too. It might be worth exploring, writing about meditating on so there's, there's value in it.

Jacqueline: Yeah. Here's a question for you, Shad. I've noticed, again, just from observing my own behavior and my thoughts over the past year or so, that silence is challenging for me. [00:45:00] Particularly because I'm afraid of what comes up in my mind when I am silent, right? And it's just like, when I find myself sitting in silence, I find myself ruminating on things, right? Things in the past that I can't change, things I wish that, would have gone differently. And I think That's the perfectionist nature in me.

So just tactically for people out there who really want to like make an effort to be in that silence. What do we do when those thoughts come up? And I know it's not a matter of suppressing them. I've heard people say Janna, Access Ideas, Tschierske, Access Ideas, Tschierske, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Tschierske, Access Ideas, Tschierske, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Tschierske, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas, Janna, Access Ideas,

Shad Berry: Yeah, I think it's a really good question, and, I've definitely had experiences where I've had these very troubling, disturbing thoughts that, really deactivated me that, or activated me or, or dysregulated me [00:46:00] that I just couldn't shake. That was, that was a different experience that just took time and being able to be with people who could tolerate me being somewhere I didn't want to be.

Like, I don't want to feel or think about, and, and I would say that those were, those experiences were not, Based on something that actually happened. It was more of a fear of what could happen. Or me, me imagining the absolute worst, catastrophizing. So that's, that's one thing. And I, and I think bringing that to other people to the light where you can Have some objective feedback becomes really important that, using negative energy like, trying to hold the damn back is absolutely exhausting.

Letting, letting that river flow to your metaphor of like, okay, I'm not powerful enough to stop this on my own. And believing that it's not going to be there forever. The other side of that, I think in the more dated, like just, just parts [00:47:00] of my story that I want to avoid, where if I'm still, and I start to feel the things I'm afraid of, and I start to feel things, people that, for me right now, when I'm still there, I have a lot of relationships that are, that I, feel extremely sad about, , how they've landed or where they are or how they ended.

And those often come up of like imagining conversations. And so being able to write about my grief over what they are. My anger for what I wanted them to be, or what I had hoped for. Grieving my powerlessness over trying to make it right or different. That is actually incredibly healing. It's part of the process of surrendering.

Learning to accept, even being okay with what's not okay. Some of that brokenness and loss, there's nothing you could say to me. Like, nothing, there's nothing anybody could say to me to make it okay that we lost Henry, our adopted son. , like there's [00:48:00] nothing that makes that okay. And. We're going to be okay.

, it's not going to kill me. And, and so that I, that I am resilient enough to bear it well, but not by myself. I am incredibly strong. I believe I'm a strong human, but not alone. Alone, I'm exceedingly weak. And so being able to sit with that, bring that to trustworthy people the, the, I guess the clinical term would be a meta process, like putting language to what I'm feeling.

But yeah, I mean, the invitation you're putting out there and what I'm really trying to encourage people toward is let your story matter. Let your experience matter. There's no such thing as nature versus nurture. Nurture is really your experience of living that, that, informs how you live out your nature.

There's hardwired parts about your traits that are then informed by your experiences, your wins, your failures, your hurts, and your losses. And they all fit. They, they they all matter. They all have a place. [00:49:00] They're, they're all sacred. Yeah, letting, letting them come, not, not fighting or warring against them, and then finding your people that, that you can share them with.

Jacqueline: what God says, right? God says, I promise to work all things together for your good and my glory and to just really cast your, your anxieties on him. So again, whenever I find myself in the midst of those like thoughts that are attacking me, I just, I shift, I shift my perspective, 

Shad Berry: Yeah. Well, it's truth. It's, it's letting truth inform your reality, right? And the fear, especially in the faith community, it's for me, it was like fear was antithetical to faith. Like You shouldn't be afraid of anything because your faith is stronger than your fear. It's like, no, my faith is a byproduct of my fear.

Like the fact that I'm afraid is what invites me into faith. And every time and biblically that you see Jesus [00:50:00] show up or God speak to his people when he confronts their fear, it's, It's with his presence, not with shame. He's not saying, how dare you be afraid? He's saying, of course you're afraid.

This is scary, but you're not alone. Like, I'm with you. My youngest, at least all of my kids did this at some point, but they'd come When they were old enough to get out of their own bed and knock on my door, they'd knock on my door and say, hey, I want can I come into your room?

And you're like, why? I said, well, it's dark in my room. And he said, well, and it's scary. I said, well, it's dark in my room too. Mom and dad don't sleep with a nightlight. They're not afraid of the dark. We're afraid of being alone in the dark. Who, who, who will be with me when, when darkness comes? Cause it, it will.

But it won't, it doesn't have to, it doesn't have to defeat you or destroy

you. 

Jacqueline: I love that. Chad, we've touched on so many great topics. I'd love to have you back on because there's just so much to unpack, but I am curious. What are some life transforming habits that you yourself have implemented or that even you've seen some of the people [00:51:00] with, people you work with use that have been really effective?

Shad Berry: Yeah. Habits. I think the finding my routine the, so very specifically, I, my, my favorite time of the day is the early morning. So I love to get up early and have still quiet solitude, with my, perfect cup of coffee and where I can journal, , listen to, , readings and music.

that invites me into a bigger story than the one that I feel like I'm living right now. It puts everything in perspective for me. I love pairing that with Wim Hof Breathing. That's just an easy app I use to just do some, a few rounds of breathing exercises. Like, if you monitor your heart rate or if you've seen, if you pay attention to like your HRV, seeing the impact that that has on, over time, my, just watching my resting heart rate calm down which, which is a decent metric, a good metric to, to know of yourself.[00:52:00] 

Like, so that morning routine has been absolutely vital. And before, I would say, historically, that had been like this thing I should do, that I didn't want to do. now it's become this thing, like, I crave and I look forward to, because there is a relational connection with God in it.

and myself. So it's really honoring that and prioritizing that. I'm still pretty bad on my sleep front. I still don't get enough sleep and I'm working on that. I'm still somewhere between six or seven. I really want to have over seven hours at least. But, , when I do sleep, it is incredibly powerful.

But I tell everybody, my estimator is broken. When it comes to money and time, I am like almost always wrong. So yeah, so like, I'm always like, it'll take 15 minutes. It'll take a day. It'll take, it's like, it doesn't matter.

I'm always wrong by like anywhere from 20 to 75%. puTting things on a calendar and, and not just appointments. But what needs to get done? What is my priority? What? And so having the, I have what I call my big [00:53:00] three. , Michael Hyatt has a system that I like that has informed this. But it's like the big three of the day and the week.

And so if those things don't get time on my calendar, They will not happen. Not, not with the degree of intentionality that I want to give them. When I put those things on my calendar, then I have a better, it, it, what it does is it protects my yes. It takes a thousand no's to protect one yes. If, if I don't have those things on my calendar daily, weekly, or monthly, then I will say yes to other things that will fill that space that will prevent me from pursuing my priorities.

And that's problematic, like that's, that's becomes dishonoring and harmful to myself. So it's really hard for me to say no, especially to fun things, with people I love. And so I, and again, this is an ongoing practice for me, but like, I've got to put them on my calendar so that I can, I can say, no, I've made a commitment and a promise to myself to do [00:54:00] this thing during this time.

and so it helps me a lot just getting, getting real practical, but your calendar. using it properly can be. Your greatest ally and defense, I think, in terms of pursuing what matters most. Now, if you haven't defined what matters most to you,

Jacqueline: Probably step number one. 

Shad Berry: Yeah, that's another big conversation.

Jacqueline: Yeah, it's so funny you mention that. I was literally just having this conversation with my mom yesterday because she just has so much, like, she has so much on her to do list, but the day just tends to escape her, and that's why I'm like, Mom, just block off time.

Twelve to two, make phone calls, two to four. Do your EFT technique. You really, you need to have control over your schedule. And one other thing, too, that I personally have found super helpful is that whenever I do have that morning routine and I execute it, no matter, however I'm feeling, getting into that cold shower, I think when you prove to yourself that you can do hard things, It expands into other areas [00:55:00] of your life, right? So if you do that cold plunge in the morning, you can conquer the day. You can do that podcast episode. You can have a great presentation at your, at your work 

meeting. 

So they truly carry over.

This has been such an incredible conversation. Again, we've covered so much, but I do want to be conscious of your time. Where can listeners find you?

Shad Berry: Yeah. The two best places I think would be Cardiacollective. com is the practice management company for licensed professional counselors and coaches. So that's our, that's our collective of counselors and coaches. So some are licensed counselors, some are, do coaches, some do both. That'd be, that'd be where you could connect to do some of your own work or be resourced in that.

Edmondson. group, , is the, business advisory group and consulting and leadership development program that I co lead with my partner, Ken Edmondson and mentor and friend. So he and I work together to write and develop resources and curriculum to help mid market business owners and leaders, , to be.

not only [00:56:00] equipped to do their jobs well, but also stay emotionally, relationally healthy and present while they do So those are the two. And I'm on, Instagram, , as well, but, , you can find me, you can find me out there pretty, pretty easily.

Jacqueline: Wonderful. Well, I will include the links to all of that in the show notes, but my last question for you, and this is often my favorite question to ask, well, it is my favorite question to ask, and that is, what does being well and strong mean to you?

Shad Berry: Yeah, man, that's a great question. I, I love the combination of well and strong in business. We, we talk about doing well and good, for business to sustain itself, it has to deliver on its mission and do things that make it financially viable and sustainable. But so I think that, I think the, the word I would choose would be integrated.

For me to be well and strong means that I can, I I'm integrated as a human being, had hands and heart there's. alignment , and acceptance of to, to, bear life on life's [00:57:00] terms. So I would probably just put it in that integration category that I, that I embrace, that I'm, I'm an emotional being.

I'm a physical being, I'm a spiritual being, I'm a relational being, and all those things fit. One is not more, they're all, they all are very significant in matter, so if I can practice integrating those things then I can be well and strong.

jacqueline_raw-audio_riverside_0319-CLEANED: I love that. That was beautiful. Can I include that as a quote on my website? Chad, I'll quote you.

Shad Berry: Absolutely.

Jacqueline: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. truly such a pleasure speaking with you. I really enjoyed this conversation 

and very excited to share with listeners.

Shad Berry: Well, thank you for your courageous effort and your passion for putting this together and building this framework and putting yourself out there. It's a noble effort, so I hope that many are encouraged, encouraged by it. So keep it up.

Jacqueline: Awesome. Thanks so much, Chad.

Shad Berry: All right, take care.


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