58: Overcoming Stage IV Cancer Against the Odds | Jon Hegarty

Join me as I speak with Jon Hegarty about his brother Christian's remarkable journey in overcoming a terminal cancer diagnosis. In 2020, Christian was diagnosed with osteosarcoma. His doctors told him his only treatment options were chemotherapy or hospice care. Christian’s story illustrates that when conventional medical treatment fails, alternative paths to healing are worth exploring. Willing to try anything, Christian gave himself 5 weeks to explore alternative treatments. He radically changed his mindset, implemented dozens of holistic healing strategies like high-dose vitamin C infusions and mistletoe. To everyone’s astonishment, after just 5 weeks, the oncology team at Dana Farber called with shocking news - his tumors had somehow shrunk. Christian is now 2 years into remission. Since then, the brothers have started a non-profit called "GoingWell", that connects cancer survivors like Christian - people who have all but been written off by conventional medicine - to cancer patients who could benefit from their guidance and experience.

Suggested Resources:

• Going Well
• Mistletoe for cancer
• Fenbendazole for cancer
• Use the code wellnstrong15 for 15% off at North Star Grounding
• Get my free guide, An Integrative Approach to Healing Breast Cancer

This episode is proudly sponsored by Spry Gum, my go-to gum for fresh breath and supporting a healthy smile. Spry is sugar-free and sweetened with xylitol, which makes it a simple, tooth-friendly addition to my daily oral-care routine.

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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] It's really nice to connect with you. Thank you for, for reaching out. You have a really awesome story. Well, your brother does before I start, 

I'd love if you could kick it off with, telling us how, how you found yourself in this space, and starting your non profit Going Well, a little bit about Christian's story, and, yeah, well, I guess we'll start there.

However

Jon: Absolutely. So, so I'm one of four boys and. He's the youngest. I'm the third. So, um, you know, growing up we were, uh, he was always the baby of the family. Everyone was always trying to take care of him. He was always everyone's best friend. And, um, And his sophomore year in high school, he got diagnosed with bone cancer called osteosarcoma.

Um, it had spread from his right knee to both of his lungs at diagnosis. And that took his chance of having a pretty good five year outcome to having a pretty poor five year outcome. The fact that it had [00:01:00] spread made it that much more serious. At the time, you know, we, we thought, thank God, Christian's got some of the best doctors at Dana Farber.

Um, you know, he took the, he's a big strong kid over six feet tall. Um, and he took the approach of, you know, give me more chemotherapy. I want to do whatever I can to really fight this thing. And, uh, that approach worked for, for a bit, uh, he, he was able to get into remission. He stayed there for five years, he's had several surgeries on his right leg, uh, to remove the diseased, um, tumor also to kind of replace his, his existing bone.

He had cadaver bone placed at one point. Um, he's had several surgeries on both his lungs called thoracotomies, where they kind of spread his ribs up, uh, laterally, and the surgeon will go in with his hands and feel with, feel for [00:02:00] calcified, uh, lesions, which is bone tumor in his lungs. Um, in addition to that, he's, he's had the, the, uh, what's called the MAP IE protocol for chemotherapy.

So really starting in 2013. Um, in 2014, he was doing a ton of conventional therapy and that's really all we considered. was able to stay there for five years until 2020. So in 2020, the pandemic had brought us together. Um, I had, I had fled New York city. If you remember, New York was the first place where

COVID kind of landed.

And, um, And I was working in finance at the time and he, so moved home and then July of 2020, Christian got that dreaded call from his oncology team that, you know, on your six month scans, we'd see two small nodules on your lungs. This is positive for osteosarcoma, [00:03:00] um, and the outlook. When osteosarcoma comes back, it tends to be very aggressive, you know, his chances weren't very good to begin with.

Uh, back in 2013, and now they've only gotten worse. Chemotherapy was expected to be twice as toxic, half as effective. In fact, they were recommending one of the drugs that he had already taken before. Um, so this is when I went from being sort of a supportive brother, someone that just there to kind of cheer him on along the way to someone who was really willing to, uh, I had a different perspective, just a different mindset.

And, um, you know, it didn't make sense to me to do the, do something that we knew wasn't going to work. And I wanted to consider more options. Um, you know, really explore in, you know, such a big world, how are we limited to one chemotherapy option or, or, you know, two or three [00:04:00] clinical trials that have a couple drugs that are very similar to each other.

So I asked a lot of questions and a lot of the answers I got, honestly, were very dismissive of my thinking. Um, you know, they said things like there's no evidence that that'll work without really, um, without really showing any, um, you know, without really any consideration whatsoever. So at best, um, they were dismissive.

At worst, they were outright, um, you know, frustrated by the, by my questions. And You know, we ended up, uh, really going all in on the alternative and, and, and complimentary side, um, you know, Christian, it was a really tough decision to turn down a clinical trial in November of 2020, but, uh, you know, he didn't really have many better options and, and he, he had seen the level of research and dedication that I had put in, um, which gave him the confidence [00:05:00] and conviction to, for better, for worse, give it a chance.

And, uh, pretty soon after, you know, it wasn't, wasn't a straight line, but we were able to make things work, um, in 2020, 2021, he shrank his cancer, had a few encouraging scans point where he knew that, um, You know, we were going to continue to just double, triple down on everything that we were doing. And, uh, and today he's almost three years in remission.

So it's been an incredible ride. Um, and, and honestly, looking back, you know, we, we knew nothing of what, of what we've learned. Back then, and so started going well to try and share more information, uh, to people earlier on, hopefully get to people at diagnosis, uh, when, you know, they sort of have more options and more, um, you know, ability to, to change their, their course of their treatment.[00:06:00] 

Jacqueline: I couldn't agree more. It's an incredible story. I think, sadly, many folks now don't really consider integrative or complementary medicine or therapies until it's more advanced or in the later stages, which, again, does have its time and place and could be helpful.

But I think certainly a more integrative approach from the initial diagnosis would be even more beneficial, um, to your point about the research. I am really curious what some of the initial resources. You went to even were because as you know, there are just so many And just for you for for context on me.

So my mom was diagnosed with stage 2 breast cancer back in 2008 and that really sparked a fire in me in terms of figuring out Okay, she's doing this conventional treatment But why did she get cancer in the first place right cancer didn't even run in our family and then obviously later learned that You Over 98 percent of breast cancer cases are not genetically related.

Um, but anyway, so I, I kind of already dove into that world probably around 13, years old. [00:07:00] And then as I mentioned Babson college, studied economics, but during my undergrad years I wrote a thesis on integrative medicine specifically in the context of cancer care. So I was researching, John, all these therapies like ozone and mistletoe and high dose IVC.

Again, it's funny how God works in the sense of a year after I graduated and published that paper My mom's cancer came back and it spread to her bone now. She's dealing with some liver lesions But I mean we've been dealing with this for the past six years, but at that point in time, I already had kind of context on which resources to go to.

So I'm sure you're familiar with the Moss reports. That was probably my, my first primary site in terms of just tackling the space and figuring out, okay, of the clinical studies done, which are very few, what has been shown to be most promising. , but yeah, I mean, how did you even figure out where to start in terms of that research? Because Google also [00:08:00] filters a lot, right? And I'm sure you're aware of that too.

Jon: Yeah, more, more and more. I find that the search results are less and less helpful. Even in 2020, I think they're more helpful than they are today. Um, but yeah, that, you know, I'm struck by what you said. The fact that you had already done happened to have done a lot of this research and you kind of were in the perfect position.

your mom. That is exactly what happened to me. I would say. Um, I remember in, in 2019, I watched the heel documentary on Netflix. Are you familiar? Um, and Uh, I remember thinking like, this is incredible, you know, this, it really resonated with me. You know, why would you take, why would drugs be your, your primary form of healing option?

Heal kind of talked about all the, the, the, Eastern medicine, complementary approaches, everything else that is sort of, um, overlooked by our conventional medical [00:09:00] community. So I saw that documentary in 2019 and I kind of just watched it just for fun, didn't really, it wasn't really doing anything on a Friday night and, um, had no idea, but it ended up In that documentary was featured Kelly Turner, who's a Harvard trained researcher, and I'm sure you know her well, who studied the least likely the most incredible cancer survivors, people who have run out of conventional options and turn to, uh, alternative complimentary approaches and then have had success.

And she has documented all these cases so that everybody can learn from them. And, uh, and, and I remember I saw her in, in, in 2019. So it was really the perfect sort of, uh, prerequisite. To, uh, you know, my brother's recurrence in 2020 at that point, you know, I just had so much conviction. It was almost as if, you know, and now the [00:10:00] dots looking backwards started to really connect in it and it really, um, you know, was put me in the perfect position at the perfect place at the perfect

time. I love that. And for listeners, that book is called Radical Remission. So that also too was among the very first books, uh, that I read. I, I looked at a lot of, uh, Chris Work's resources as well. Dr. Veronique Desaulniers, again, there's so many. And to that point, too, John, I mean, how did you avoid information overwhelm?

Jacqueline: Because this is something I still struggle with on a daily basis, because I think, you know, as a caregiver, you know, you want to do everything in your power that you can to help your loved one. And I think sometimes, like, you know, It's not sometimes, often it's too much, right? It's too great of a burden to, to carry.

Um, so that's something I've just been continuing to navigate. I don't have an answer, but I am curious, how do you deal with information overwhelm?

Jon: It's such a good question. And if I had a [00:11:00] great answer, I would share it with you. You know, I, I think that having cancer, having a loved one have cancer is incredibly stressful. It's, it's a really difficult journey for them and for you. And then to add, to take control of the situation and to take control of the medical decision making.

Just adds a level of pressure that is, it's like triple the amount of pressure. Um, and so, yeah, as, as someone who wanted to do anything I could for my brother, you know, I knew that there's infinite possibilities of therapies out there. So to the extent that we. Took our foot off the gas pedal in terms of research and finding options and learning was the same extent to which, uh, you know, he potentially wouldn't have the results that he's having.

So, um, yeah, it, you know, the pressure, the overwhelm was [00:12:00] absolutely there, but I, I also wouldn't, I don't think I'd change it for anything. I think, um, you know, I'm, I've always been a, You know, someone to set really high goals on an unachievably high goals and then just try to get as close to them as possible Um, but, um, now as I help patients, I think, um, I'm realizing that everything that we're talking about is so underappreciated that, um, that people haven't even heard of it and they haven't even done it yet.

So at this point, it's like, there, there's really only so much benefit to doing more research when. Getting what we already, you know, you and I already know out there is probably a better use of our time

Jacqueline: And that's the thing too. I mean, sometimes you just have to pick a path or pick a treatment. And stick with it, right? And it may or may not be the best treatment, but if [00:13:00] the patient believes it is, that's half the battle right there, and I'm sure your brother went through that too. Um, but yeah, with that, what did Christian do in terms of complementary therapies? Like where did you guys start?

Jon: Sure. Yeah. Uh, high dose vitamin C IVs, I think have a special place in our hearts because

In that, in that five week period, so in July of 2020, he had his cancer come back where he was debating whether doing this clinical trial or not. Um, we did high dose vitamin C. He asked for a wait and see period of five weeks from his oncology team.

In the five weeks, we really ramped up the high dose vitamin C and in those five weeks, his cancer shrank, you know, 10 to 15 percent enough to give him the courage conviction that, that this was the right path that he was on. So that I think has a special place in his heart and my parents heart. Um, and certainly, uh, I really, really advocate for it as [00:14:00] well.

Um, mistletoe therapy, everything you mentioned, we've ozone, hyperthermia, uh, Um, you know, my perspective was to try to bring as much of this into the home as possible because, you know, there's so many consultations,

um, not only relate, yeah, it gets expensive and he's just going to so many consultations, not only for the cancer, but then, you know, are your, are your kidney levels okay, et cetera, et cetera.

And, um, You know, it's just so, so much of it's so overwhelming that the more that as someone who's trying to help them, the more I could bring this stuff into the home and make it sort of things that we could do as a lifestyle. Not only was that more, you know, we were able to kind of do it more often, but we could do it.

Yeah. You know, in higher doses and have more control over the whole process. So, um, yeah, we brought ozone into the home. We've brought, uh, PEMF into the home. We have a sauna at home. [00:15:00] Um, and then, uh, you know, repurposed drugs that we've been able to access. He does at home. So he's a naturopath over Zoom and, 

Jacqueline: repurposed drugs did he try? I'm curious.

Jon: so Fembendazole he's, he's 

taken, 

Jacqueline: Did he do the Joe Tippins protocol or is he just taking Fenben on its own?

Because I know that Joe Tippin's protocol calls for like Tudca and like all of these other things, and I know there are also people who literally just take fenbendazole or mebendazole on its own,

Jon: Yeah. I, I, so we incorporated Fenbendazole alongside his overall protocol with his naturopath. I don't think we

did the rest of, uh, yeah, the rest of what Joe recommends, although I'm sure there's a lot of great value

Jacqueline: Yeah. Did he try ivermectin?

Jon: We've taken ivermectin for COVID, but not, not, he hasn't taken it for cancer.

Jacqueline: Yeah. So interesting. Was your family, like, I mean, it sounds like they're [00:16:00] much more wellness oriented now, but prior to your brother's diagnosis, like, would you say that your family was relatively health conscious?

Jon: Think like my whole family's whole perspective has their whole worldview has kind of turned upside down. They went from, you know, really trusting the medical institutions to really having a whole lot of skepticism and. Um, yeah, I think our perspectives changed in terms of health consciousness, they were, they were no more or less health conscious than, than, than most people.

We tried to, uh, avoid processed food and fast food and stuff, but not, you know, we didn't, we stopped drinking soda a long time ago 

as a family. But, um, yeah, certainly, certainly a start.

Jacqueline: That's important. My, my mom was always pretty health conscious. She, in fact, I, I say she's one of the pioneers of Whole Foods [00:17:00] because when they first came out, she would be in that store. Um, but again, there are so many other factors that can lead to cancer formation, like lack of sleep and stress that, again, people don't necessarily think of, um, when they think of cancer that are equally, um, As important, if not more than the food you eat.

But yeah, I am curious, John, and you're probably not gonna have a solid answer to this because I certainly don't. But when we look at conventional oncology, right, how do we fix our healthcare system? And this was, this was a whole chapter in my, in my thesis, not necessarily about fixing, but like identifying the problems.

And. I think, you know, I mean, one of my best friends went into medicine. She's a pediatrician and I don't necessarily think she went into pediatrics like with with poor intent, right? Like people go to medical school because they want to help people, because, you know, that that's where their heart is, which is wonderful.

But I think, sadly, Our medical system in this country has been infiltrated by Big Pharma to the point where, you know, I don't [00:18:00] want to say brainwashed, but to an extent, these students do become brainwashed and kind of, you know, looking at disease in terms of, okay, how do we treat this disease with a drug?

And I think it's really interesting that if you look at the curriculum of naturopathic doctors, The first two years are the exact same as a regular medical student. It's the latter two years that differ where for conventional medicine, they focus on drugs, right? For treatment and naturopathic medicine is more again, natural medicine and that focus on prevention.

So. I mean, I think our healthcare system is a little bit, you know, too corrupt to even be fixed. But how do we help remedy, especially in the cancer space, you know, a lot of this corruption that's going on?

Jon: yeah. So I'll give you, you know, my perspective, my solution, sort of the long term vision for going well. And I'd love, I'd love to get your, your thoughts on it. [00:19:00] Um, I agree with you. I think that. The system's so broken that you almost have to start over. So, um, the long term vision, and I haven't shared this with anyone, uh, publicly, but I'll share it

with 

you. the long term vision is to. Use a, what I would call, um, uh, university endowment model. Um, so going well as a 501c3 nonprofit, uh, we'll, we'll charge patients for naturopathic care out of pocket. With sort of like a kind of tuition membership plus charge for services. We'll have really high prices for that, but then offer sort of financial aid to try and make it work for everybody.

That way we can, we can have the funds to be able to compete with big pharma, to defend ourselves legally, to continue to study natural, holistic, and complimentary approaches to really become experts in the space of, [00:20:00] you know, we have a, a, a pancreatic cancer, what should we do? Um, So sort of high. high fees, but with, with a, uh, with a financial aid model, and then also accept donations to have an endowment that we will, uh, invest and, uh, sort of run like, like a college endowment is run.

So sort of like a hedge fund model where we take these funds and invest them over time. So at a high level, that's sort of. Where I would, I see the endpoint for going well, I think it's something that can, uh, it's the only way to, um, really be a resource that is, um, you know, powerful enough to, uh, you know, Be something that people would want to turn to, you know, at diagnosis.

Um, and yeah, there's so many different [00:21:00] elements

to it, 

Jacqueline: I love that. See, the finance background comes into play, right? Who would have thought? That, that, you should be using those skills now. I love that. I, I think that's genius. Um, speaking of going well, I mean, I, I know about it obviously, but can you let listeners know what exactly it is and how does it work?

Cause it's a, it's a pretty cool platform.

Jon: sure. Yeah. Going well is, um, has been the result of everything that we've talked about today and Christian success. And we want to share that with more people. So what we've done is we've collated some of these amazing survivors, people who have beat the odds from a conventional perspective. We've brought them onto the going well platform.

So anybody facing a cancer diagnosis, uh, or has a friend or a loved one who they want to kind of share this perspective of complimentary and alternative medicine. Can log on to our site for absolutely no charge at all. You can order a video from a survivor [00:22:00] of their particular type of cancer to hear their story, they'll put together a personalized video, um, not sharing not only their story, but hope and inspiration, potentially a few recommendations for where they would start.

If they were in your shoes and, uh, we've seen some amazing success with some of the videos produced, people have been, you know, really excited to a get the video and then be take action from it. And, uh, and a few of a few of our patients have had, you know, incredible levels of success, shrinking cancer markers.

One guy shrank his cancer marker 50 percent in the first month. Um, after receiving a video and making some basic lifestyle changes. So, um, yeah, it's a, it's an amazing resource. It's completely free donor funded. Uh, and yeah, that's where, that's where going well stands

Jacqueline: I love that. I love that it's cancer specific, right? Because I think it's very challenging. There are a [00:23:00] multitude of different types of cancers out there. So to be able to locate someone who has your exact type and then have them serve as a guide in that journey is is really great. Um, I wrote a 30 page guide.

On an integrative approach to breast cancer derived from my honors thesis that I have available on well and strong. I'll link it in the show notes, but it's basically everything from resources, right? Like things that I wish I knew, um, not only when my mom was first diagnosed, but also during her occurrence to really just outline again, like, these are the steps that I wish I had taken.

Um, that's certainly I know now, but hopefully help others who are. facing a diagnosis themselves or, you know, serving as a caregiver. So I, I love that. And have you heard of Healing Strong, John?

So interestingly, even before I started Well and Strong, I connected with Susie Griswold, who's the founder, and I was enamored with her whole plan too, to basically connect.

Cancer survivors and create these groups like across the [00:24:00] country. I think even in Canada that again are just groups of cancer survivors And they sit and they go through their curriculum But you should definitely tap into that network because I'm sure there are a lot of people Who would love to share their stories and be on your platform

Jon: Absolutely. Yeah. We, I've traded a couple of emails with Susie, but we haven't actually been able to connect. So, uh, I, uh, Healing Strong is an amazing organization and definitely, you know, if I had cancer, it'd be something I would, I would be a part of.

Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that. Knowing what you know now, John, I know you mentioned earlier that, you know, you wouldn't necessarily change anything, but what would you tell yourself, like, right at Christian's first diagnosis? It could even just be words of encouragement like looking back. What would you want to want yourself to know?

Jon: Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the first things that pops into my head is, um, to know that, know that any particular scan or three month period or piece of good news or [00:25:00] bad news is not the end. You know, it's never, it's natural to be on this emotional roller coaster throughout the whole ride, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Um, you know, good news is never final and neither is bad news. Um, also, you know, just to keep an open mind to know that, you know, carve your own path and really follow your intuition and what, figure out what resonates most with you. Ultimately, uh, you know, we are. We're ultimately responsible for the outcome.

So, you know, might as well take on the responsibility of any kind of decision making and to to find people who that who support the way that you think or that the approach that you want to take and keep those people close and they'll be your you know your your sort of support system and group, uh, to, to go through it all.

I know, [00:26:00] you know, a lot of these decisions are tough. It can has the, the potential to tear families apart. Some people, you know, I know one woman who healed her cancer naturally, whose entire family and extended family thought she was crazy and they thought she was, you know, potentially. Just couldn't understand her perspective.

Um, so I know that, you know, some people might not see things you have to, you have to be okay with other people, not necessarily seeing the world, the way that you see the world and, uh, to really lean into your convictions and, and what, you know, to be

Jacqueline: Yeah, no, that's that's really great advice for for myself and for my mom I mean as Christians we turn to to Jesus and we pray for guidance, right that he'll direct our steps And I think that's given us a lot of comfort and all the decisions that we've made um But I also to going back to what you said about intuition, I certainly think that's very important, right?

Like, what is your gut telling you to do? And I think that's the [00:27:00] Holy Spirit, but leveraging your, your business skills, John, do you have a framework that you kind of go to when faced with making a treatment decision? For your brother.

Jon: Um, that's a great question. So, you know, as I've gotten older, I'm kind of, you I kind of play it all by feel at this point. Um, there are some, some questions that there's some basic things that, that I think about when, when it comes to making a medical decision. So, you know, first of all, I think conventional medicine totally overlooks the side effects of some of the treatments.

So they're so focused on will this shrink cancer that they'll totally overlook the side effects. So one of the first questions I like to ask when considering a. Any kind of treatment, repurposed drug, drug, or whatever it might be is what are the side effects? [00:28:00] Um, because, you know, pharmaceutical drugs that have good effects, that have good anti cancer benefit with low side effects, I think are really good options.

Um, so one of the side effects is this, is this, is the potential treatment at hand? Is it, could it work? Could it be viable? You know, I had one patient who was talking about having his pancreas removed. And at that point, you know, it's a surgery that's been done, you know, maybe once or twice before and living without a pancreas, you're now a diabetic for

life. Um, it's just like, it was pretty clear that if you were to take that. Even if that surgery is successful at removing his cancer, that he'd have no quality of life thereafter. And You know, with all of these surgeries, there's always so many complications that come out of them. So, um, like don't do something that is like, just [00:29:00] clearly not going to lead to a good life.

Um, because there's, you don't know what else is out there. You, you know, you learn more as you go. And, um, And so yeah, those are, those are kind of two frameworks. What are the side effects and like, is this viable? Is this, you know, does this really make sense,

um, long

term? 

Jacqueline: you do learn more as you go, and I think it's really important for people just to show themselves grace. Um, I know there was a situation a few years ago where my mom had a prophylactic surgery done that we were told she needed to have. Long story short, she didn't need to have it, um, and had some, some complications as a result of it, but I think it's also really important that, you know, when you do make those decisions, that.

You, you look back and you say, okay, I made a decision at that point in time with the knowledge I had at the time. And that was the best decision at the time that I thought I should make, right? So just kind of showing yourself grace throughout the process because [00:30:00] hindsight is 2020, right? And you learn from your experiences, you help others and you move on with your life.

Um, but yeah, that's, that's so true. And you said when you work with patients, John, so like, do you do like, Coaching with, with these patients on going well.

Jon: Uh, only informally, no, not, not formally at all. I, um, I try to stay close to the patient just to learn as much as I can and stay, um, you know, stay sharp, uh, in what I do. Um, as part of going well, you know, a lot of our patients will order a video and then I'll end up giving them some, some informal advice along the 

way. So, uh, but yeah, I totally agree with you. Regretting certain past decisions, of course, is not, uh, it's not helpful. Um, not productive, but, um, but yeah, I really believe in the naturopathic way of, uh, less is more, uh, do, do less harm, uh, first do [00:31:00] no harm. And then, um, and, and work from there because, um, once you start on these These medical treatments that are so invasive and brutal, you kind of turn yourself into a patient for life, even if, even if it's successful against the

Jacqueline: right. Cause your body depends on it and I think that's the thing I love about Naturopathic or integrative medicine is that it essentially supports your body's self healing processes, right? Mistletoe helping to increase natural killer cell count and boosting your immune system. Such that You do the healing on your own, right?

You're not dependent upon a drug to do that. And I mean, to your point about, you know, drugs that have minimal side effects, I definitely think there's a time and place, but just looking at my mom's case, for example, I mean, she's switched from targeted drug to targeted drug to targeted drug because what happens ultimately is the tumors develop new mutations, right?

And then it's just like a matter of, okay, is there another drug that [00:32:00] targets this mutation? without necessarily addressing the underlying root of the cancer, the metabolic issues. So you just kind of question, right? It's like, what's the risk benefit of, of these medications, but yeah, definitely a time and place for sure. Question on the, the helping patients front, cancer is obviously a very heavy topic, right? So how do you, I mean, I'm, I'm a very empathetic person, and I, like, when I talk to people who are struggling, I kind of take on their burdens.

That's just how I am. So how do you, like, maintain boundaries around yourself, right, to kind of protect your, your, your, like, well being internally without getting so bogged down by The heaviness of of this topic.

Jon: Another such a great question. And it's, again, I think I, I think I'm also empathetic. I think I also, uh, can have a tendency to take on a lot of [00:33:00] the pain and the, the emotional burden of, of the patients that I work with. so much. So, yeah, I'm not sure I have a, I don't, I'm not sure I figured that one out. 

Jacqueline: I haven't either 

Jon: yeah, I think it's something I'm, that I'm, I'm working through and trying to figure out with going well, we want to try to scale something to have as much impact as possible. So, um, to some extent I'm learning how to not. You know, it gets so necessarily emotionally involved in, in any one particular case, although it's kind of, it's kind of natural for me to, you know, you know, we know so much about all these natural and integrative therapies and we know how much good we can do.

It's only natural to really want to help.

Jacqueline: Yeah, so true one other question for you with this platform. So you connect patients who have Successfully either put their cancer into remission or healed completely with other patients who have the [00:34:00] same cancer How do you and completely fine if you don't have an answer to this, but I'm just curious like for my mom's case for example I remember the first few folks that I spoke with who had the same exact cancer and did all these wonderful therapies.

It was overwhelming going back to, to our initial question of how do you, discern like when to stop with over information overload. And with all these people we spoke to, it was like, okay, this woman did X, Y, Z therapies. And then this woman did like ABC therapies. I'm both had success, right? Same exact type of cancer.

How does, how do we choose what to do? Right? So like, do you have any advice for navigating a situation like that? Right? We're like, you don't necessarily want that patient to copy, like, word for word or like therapy for therapy. What that person did and I know it's more about like encouraging them and providing them with resources But how do you avoid that right like having each [00:35:00] patient have that mentality of oh I have to do this this and this because this is what this person with my type of cancer did and she healed

Jon: Right. Yeah, I think that's something that, that, that patients can figure out. Um, I, I agree with you. You don't kind of want whiplash of like, I have to do what this person did, but yet sharing that level of inspiration is sort of what we're all about to begin with. Um, but I think ultimately it comes down to, you know, thinking from, from our story and what, what, you know, all the research I did for Christian, it was doing a lot of research, finding different people who've had success with different approaches.

And then like kind of hearing about it twice or you hear about it a third time, that's when you're like, okay, you know. Okay, we should, we should really chase this one down. We should really implement this, um, because you hear something and you know, maybe you hear something in a different type of cancer [00:36:00] and you know, it sounds compelling.

It's from someone you really trust and it sounds cool, but you know, you're not really compelled to do it, but then you hear about it, you know, six months later or three months later from another person you really trust completely separately and. That's when you say, all right, there's, there's a whole lot behind this.

And we gotta, we gotta get back. We have to figure out how to implement it. You know, I think a good example on that would be like fenbendazole. So the idea of taking a pet dewormer, you know, at one point in my life was absolutely insane. You know, why would we do that? That's, you know, I understand how crazy and how much skepticism that invites, You know, I heard it was, we had a neighbor that was lived about a mile away from us, people who are, you know, husband's an engineer and wife's a pianist and they're both very intelligent people that we've known for six, seven [00:37:00] years, they recommended it to us.

And then separately, you know, through all my research, I connected with someone who said that her husband's brain tumor was shrinking because he was on bet, fenbendazole. And so, you know, because I had, was doing this legwork myself in, in, in contacting these people, I came to really trust what they had to say.

And then pretty, it became pretty obvious that fenbendazole was going to be an, an amazing option and something that we definitely should, uh, should implement. So, um, That's kind of how, how that worked. I don't think, you know, if one person told me to do a pet dewormer, I don't think I would go for it, but you hear about it two or three times and yeah.

Then you're like, 

Jacqueline: yeah, and intuitively to like sometimes like when you first have that initial reaction like this is crazy Then you actually start to like look at the mechanisms by which it it's supposed to work You realize wait, actually this makes a lot of sense right 

Jon: yeah, [00:38:00] exactly. And you also come to understand that fenbendazole is prescribed for pets, but maybendazole is the human version and the two drugs are actually very, very similar. And they're actually very well tolerated, both, both humans and, and animals. And then you realize that, you know, every drug that's ever created is tested on mice first.

And so you kind of get more comfortable with the idea, um, because you kind of think it through logically. So it's really not, you know, people. People who are taking pet, uh, pet drugs are not, not nearly as crazy as they sound initially on the surface. Once you, once 

you kind of understand their reasoning and

Jacqueline: yeah. No, that's so true. And obviously, I certainly want to say for anyone listening, like, do not do any protocols on your own. Like, definitely consult with an integrative practitioner who can give you a legitimate protocol. Um, I know with fenbendazole too, you also have to be really careful in watching your liver enzymes, every month.

So, that's why it's [00:39:00] important to be under the care of a, a practitioner. But, yeah, I couldn't agree more, John.

Jon: Absolutely. And I, and I just want to echo that, um, you know, this, that's something that we did with Christian. Um, But definitely, you know, consult your naturopath, consult your doctors, consult as many people as possible that have licensed medical degrees. I, I, I actually like not having a medical degree because I'm more free to, to speak about our story.

And, and, you know, I'm not tied to a medical license, but anyone listening definitely should, should, uh, should get some legal medical advice.

Jacqueline: Well, John, it was really great chatting with you. I love your story. Thanks for coming on the show. Where can listeners learn more about going well?

Jon: Yeah. So, uh, check us out going well. org. Um, and you'll see our site and our platform of survivors and you can order a video absolutely free. And also I wanted to mention, we [00:40:00] also have a brand of, uh, of grounding. Earthing sheets and pillowcases that we have available. It's a child brand of Going Well, so it's all in the same non profit.

It's called NorthStarGrounding. com. Um, and we'll, I'll create a discount code for any of your listeners. So we'll say well in strong 15, um, for 15 percent off, I'll, I'll make sure that, uh, I send you that code so you can add it, add it to the podcast. And yeah, just a quick pitch on, on grounding. I think it's one of the absolute best things that anybody can do.

It's so easy. You know, you can sleep with it, you know, the seven to nine hours that we're in bed every night is, is our time for restoration and it is, um, yeah, again, so easy. It's the longest time of the day that we're stationary and can be connected to the earth outside. So, um, I'm not sure if, if you [00:41:00] practice much grounding either, uh, outside or, or with any kind of devices or anything, but it's something that I, you know, Along the way realized this is potentially the easiest thing to do.

It's sort of the lowest hanging fruit and that's something that everybody should do. So with North Star, we're targeting more than just cancer patients. Um, but, uh, really. are driving the same overall mission.

Jacqueline: Huge, huge fan of grounding over here. In fact, I actually stopped someone the other day who I saw walking barefoot and I got so excited. I was like, are you grounding? And they were like, yes. Um, but that's awesome. Kudos. Kudos to you. I'll definitely, uh, include the link to that in the show notes.

My last question for you, John, this is my favorite one to ask. I don't know if you you're expecting it, but that is what does being well and strong mean to you?

Jon: Wow, um,

all right, I'll give you, I'll give, no, no, I, I love it. I [00:42:00] think being well and strong to me means really understanding who you are and being shamelessly self expressive,

um, and, and really holding onto your convictions. as a person, uh, in addition to living as healthy and as sort of purpose driven life as possible.

So, um, to really kind of understand who you are and, and, and, and, and roll with it.

Jacqueline: Can't agree more. Try to do that every single day. Well, John, thank you again so much for your time. Give your brother a big congratulations and a hug from me. I wish you both the best. Let me know how else I could help support your platform, but yeah, I'm really excited to share this with listeners and I'll, I'll let you know when it drops.