How To Be WellnStrong

72: How to Stop Ruminating About the Past & Find Peace in Your Present | Kristie Gaultiere, Psy.D

• Jacqueline Genova • Episode 72

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Every so often, my inner peace can turn to turmoil, especially when faced with competing demands on my time, relationship struggles, and concerns about a loved one. It also doesn’t help that so much is happening in the world around us—it is easy to feel overwhelmed. That is why I’m so grateful to speak with Kristi Gaultiere today. Kristi is a psychotherapist (Psy.D.; LPC4 and MFT29887 in CA) and a director for women in ministry and pastors’ wives. She co-leads "Soul Shepherding with Bill." Jane Willard and Dr. Jan Stoop personally mentored her. In this episode, Kristi and I discuss tactical strategies to calm the mind and still the soul and how to surrender our need for control. We can trust in God’s sovereignty to help us have a healthy relationship with our emotions.

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*Unedited Transcript*
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Jacqueline: [00:00:00] I just want to start by saying I'm so blessed to be speaking with you today. I've been so excited for our conversation. We have similar acquaintances. I first heard about you and your husband, Bill, through Evalee's page, and I checked out soul shepherding and Everything you both do from your podcast to your beautiful content on Instagram.

It's just been so encouraging and I share a lot of it on Instagram. It certainly helps me and I know it helps a lot of others as well.

Kristi: thank you, Jacqueline. And I'm so thrilled to have this time with you. And it's such an honor to be with you, your listeners. Thank you.

Jacqueline: of course, and Amy is very precious on your team. Amy, Amy and I chatted, I want to say two or three months ago on Zoom and just a very special woman. You have a very special team. So kudos to you both for building such a wonderful group of

Kristi: Thank you, Jacqueline. We're very grateful.

Jacqueline: Yeah, well. So to be honest with you, I usually have an outline of [00:01:00] topics I'd like to cover with guests before they come on. And while I did come up with an outline about a week or so ago, I woke up this morning and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to pray that the Lord leads our conversation with how he wants it.

And hopefully we can touch on topics that'll help a lot of listeners. And honestly, Kristi, I just want to talk about things that have been bothering me because I find that that also tends to be the case with many others as well. So we're going to probably be dabbling in a few different ponds today.

But 

Kristi: I love that.

Jacqueline: at the heart of it, Kristi, I really think it comes down to just what it really means to find. Peace, and, and joy in the Lord in this world of chaos and anxiety. And, you know, I find that a lot of the content that resonates with my followers has to do with mental health.

. And it's so hard to find quiet in the chaos. And that's certainly been a battle for me. Yeah, I'd love to just dive into to that.

Kristi: I love that. [00:02:00] That's a great topic and I love that you're willing to share and to be vulnerable yourself because we need to know we're not alone. And so often we compare how we feel on the inside with how others look on the outside and we assume that, you know, we're the only ones that are struggling with stress and anxiety, these kinds of things.

So I appreciate your vulnerability. We're all experiencing this together.

Jacqueline: And it's so funny too, Kristi, because I feel like, and I guess that's why therapy is so helpful. But whenever I express when I'm struggling with my dad, I joke, I call my dad, my therapist, because he is just so wise Kristi. And whenever I call him and tell him about a problem, 80 percent of the time I feel better before he even says anything, just because I was able to get it out of my mind, right.

And out in the open. So I definitely think, you know, we need to be talking about these things more, but something I've been struggling with lately is rumination over past decisions. Right. And I mean, well, and strong, we could look at this under the wellness umbrella of health decisions, [00:03:00] you know, or even outside of that, but how does one deal with rumination?

Over past decisions, and it's interesting too, because I find that that has kind of also led me to experience like decision paralysis going forward, right? In terms of figuring out what route do we go? If there is a choice A or a choice B, both are not sinful. Both are good. Which do we take?

Kristi: really good question and really important question. I think everyone struggles with a temptation to ruminate. And I think that one of the ways I understand rumination is that it's actually can be an unhealthy, unhelpful meditation. to, to think about, well, how could I actually turn my mind to be.

Instead of ruminating on past or fears or worries or anxieties, negative thoughts, how could I be ruminating, meditating? Truth, I think about in Philippians [00:04:00] 4, where Paul writes about things, think about things that are good and excellent and praiseworthy and admirable and it doesn't mean that we're denying any negativity or our emotion or our fears or anxiety.

That's not healthy either. But it's not healthy to ruminate over things that we can't control. And that's part of what rumination is. It's a, it's wrestling with things that are out of control.

Jacqueline: Yes. And it's funny too. because I feel like in a way, at least for me, the irony is that you feel like the more you think about a problem, you're gonna come to this new solution that you previously didn't think of. But that's not necessarily the case. Right. And that's the, it's kind of the, yeah.

The irony about it doesn't lead to anything.

Kristi: That's right. And actually what you shared with me before about talking out. Your fears, your concerns, your worries, your thoughts, sharing them relationally with someone who's [00:05:00] safe, someone who will listen to you with empathy and understanding and not judge you, being with you in that, that's actually super helpful for getting out of rumination because in rumination you're just in your brain alone, depending upon yourself, you get, you go down that rabbit trail of fear and you're not, you're not going to get even physiologically.

In your brain, you're not going to be able to access the problem solving centers of your brain. Whereas if you go into a place where your relational centers turn on, you're talking to somebody, you're bringing up out of your unconscious into the conscious, what it is you're really feeling and wrestling with, as you hear yourself talk, as you hear the other person listen to you, and then you're back to you, some of the things they're hearing that you're feeling, and then you're back to you.

It could be very freeing of that emotion that's gripped you. And then you're at a place where you're able to do better thinking, better problem solving, [00:06:00] and even better, as I talked about, when we're doing meditation on scripture, we're filling our mind with that truth and connecting, God, go with us, Emmanuel, Jesus, come with us, Jesus.

Who in Hebrews 4, 15, it says, we do not have a high priest who's unable to empathize with us, but one who's been tested and tried and suffered in every way we have. And so we have Jesus who has perfect empathy for us. That's what the incarnation is. It reveals Jesus is perfect. And God, the father's perfect empathy.

for us. And as we connect with God and oftentimes through people who can serve as ambassadors of him, that's where we're able to return back to peace and joy and faith and also be able to hear and receive the guidance of his spirit. Ultimately, it leads us down the path that's best.

Jacqueline: Amen. I love that, Kristi. And also, too, I mean, beyond getting those thoughts out and talking in therapy or with a close friend, I've also found [00:07:00] that replacing the thought. with a truth is most helpful. And in the past, and I know you talk a lot about this, but in the past, and I'm sure other listeners have dealt with this too, whenever you have a thought that comes to mind, an intrusive thought that you don't want to meditate on, it's like, don't think of a pink elephant, right?

That's the only thing you think of. So rather than suppress the thought. Which will lead to it inevitably coming up again. Let's replace it with truth. and for example, like one thing that's really helped me is when I ruminate on past decisions, I just, I quote the Psalms, right? The Lord guides our steps.

He guides our path. And I focus on his sovereignty. And you mentioned control, Kristi. And at the root, right? Of all anxiety and rumination and all these, these fears, it is control. And, and just, I found a lot of, um, A lot of hope and a lot of peace recently, just recognizing God's sovereignty and just understanding that, you know, it's not so much about the decisions we make [00:08:00] as much as it is realizing that God is in control of the outcome.

And as long as we are abiding in him and really seeking, his will, we can't really go wrong. Right?

Kristi: That's exactly right, Jacqueline. So important what you're saying there is, is do you think about your image of God? What is it that you are projecting onto God? Are you projecting onto God someone who is removed, who's distanced, who doesn't care, who isn't with you in this? Are you able to see the smile of God, the love of God, the presence of God?

Are you able to trust that God is good and loving, that he wills good, For you, some of these underlying things can actually have big effects and lead to huge amounts of stress and anxiety that we're not even often conscious of. Because maybe we're not thinking of it to that level, but definitely, like you said, if we, if we think that it's all up to us and our own ability to make great [00:09:00] choices and to secure ourselves and to even think the right things all the time, if we're trying to run our own lives and our own little queendom, because we're women or men that are listening, kingdom,

Jacqueline: love that.

Kristi: that's stressful.

That's, that's heavy. That's all.

Jacqueline: You're

Kristi: That's what we call a hard yoke compared to the easy yoke that Jesus leads us into. And he says, you're tired, you're stressed, or you burned out, or you worn out. Come to me in message translation. You'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest. And he says, take my yoke upon you, which is just.

Come in and into this attachment relationship and let me pull the weight. Let me steer the plow. Let's walk together and work together in your life. And learn unforced rhythms of my grace. And that's as we're learning to trust and attach and attune to Jesus with us and trust his wisdom far beyond our own.

[00:10:00] His purposes far beyond our own. In fact, even we talk a lot and teach a lot at Soul Shepherding about, about the soul, every aspect of our person, which includes our body, um, but our souls are eternal. And so we talk very much about that, our souls. We are not, we are, we are not human beings having a spiritual experience.

We are spiritual beings. eternal, created with eternal souls that will live beyond these bodies, having a human experience, and therefore everything that happens in our human experience, we need to see it within the context of spiritual reality, within the context of this vast world and universe. Ruled by a good and loving God.

Jacqueline: Amen. That was beautiful. I cannot agree more, Kristi, and God has really been opening my eyes especially this year. You said trust a few times, and I'm sure you're familiar. Yes. Ivelisse and Jimmy Page. Jimmy Page is one word book about, you know, choosing one word [00:11:00] for your year, letting that be your word.

I started that practice about two years ago and it has, it's really been life changing and my word for this year was trust and God put it on my heart last December and just looking at this year so far, there have been so many situations, Kristi, where I had no clue what I was getting myself into and I had no choice.

But to trust God, and going back, you also mentioned how, you know, trusting God. I mean, it's hard when we think of God as being removed. Um, so with that too, and I know a lot of folks struggle with this. What do we do in situations where we feel like God is removed and we're not hearing from him? And what do we do?

I'll put my two cents in two stories that really have resonated with me we look at the story of Joseph in the Bible and even Ruth. And in both of those situations, it appeared like God was removed, right? He wasn't necessarily, interacting in the situation [00:12:00] as we could see it in a, earthly manner, but he was there and he was still sovereign and he was still guiding their steps.

So those two stories have given me comfort. But beyond that, What thoughts could you offer for folks who are really trying to trust God, but they just feel like he's not present with them, or that he's silent?

Kristi: Jacqueline, thank you for naming that. That is so important. And not only do we have maybe certain circumstances where that manifests for us, but we actually have whole seasons in our life where we hit what Bill and I call in our book, Journey to the Soul, we hit a wall, a wall maybe of doubt, a wall of burnout, a wall of crisis, there's different kinds of walls that we can hit.

We can hit a wall in our faith where it feels like what used to work for us doesn't work anymore. We begin to question and doubt if any of it is even true. And oftentimes when we hit that wall, we feel very stuck in our faith. We feel unable to trust God. [00:13:00] Because of that, it is a season. Because of that, we often will feel incredible amounts of shame and as well as doubt.

And many people will think, well, I guess that's really all there is to the spiritual life and Christian life. And oftentimes they'll just stop believing in God or trust in God. Oftentimes they'll search into other religions. Other times they will just go back and settle kind of to just, well, I guess I'll just believe and do, believe and do, and just not worry that it doesn't really feel like it's real or it's working for me.

Just kind of plug away in a dutiful. But the reality is when we hit a wall season, we need to understand there's a reason for it. There's usually several reasons for it. Usually there's a circumstance that's pretty difficult and painful. Maybe a medical diagnosis of us or a loved one. Like I said, it could be a personal crisis, something that just really confronts us with [00:14:00] doubt.

Deconstruction is another one that we 

in turn, we hear a lot

about that's a wall. You know, we, we have an enemy in this world, Satan, who really wants to take us out of trusting God and take us out of walking with God and wants to destroy our faith and trust. It really wants to keep us anxious and spinning and distracted and unable to do the good that God's created us to do with him and live the life that God's given us.

created us for. So we need to realize that that's part of it too, is that there's spiritual battle. And usually at times like this, that spiritual battle, it intensifies. And so we're feeling we're on trial, we're being tested in these, these spiritual truths realities and where, where we're going to really put our trust, our faith, our hope.

And the wall is really a time when what we need and what research has shown, because [00:15:00] Every stage, and we talk about seven stages of faith in that book, the wall, this transition between stages. And what we need at the wall is to get emotionally honest with God and with others who trust God, who understand what it's like to be a Christian.

In a wall, we've been through a wall, and understand this map that God's given us. And we go through Joseph's map, we go through Abraham's map, we go through Paul's map, we share our map of our journeys with God and hitting these walls. and how the wall actually can end up turning out to be a real grace and a gift because it grows us so much in our ability to trust God and in our knowledge of God.

But oftentimes at the wall, it just feels so bad and it feels so alarming and we feel so bad and we feel so alone. And unfortunately, about half of the Christian church has never gotten beyond the wall into the latter stages of faith, [00:16:00] because they don't know what to do with the wall. They don't understand the wall, which is why we wrote a book, Journey to the Soul, to help people to understand and name it.

So really getting emotionally honest about what we're experiencing with God. with ourself and with another person who, like I said, understands this. So we, we have Soul Shepherding, about 60 spiritual directors that understand this map. They've been through walls and just are there to journey with people through.

This wall through those circumstances that absolutely take their breath away or absolutely vamp, overwhelm them with all kinds of anxiety and stress and rumination and worry and frenetic, you know, trying to problem solve and, and flitting about from one thing to another, or just trying to distract from the pain.

Jacqueline: Right. No, I, I think that's beautiful. And I mean, it's about community. Right? It's not good that man should be alone. And certainly like getting involved in [00:17:00] your church, um, having a spiritual mentor just to talk these things through with. And you mentioned the word shame, Kristi, and I also think there's a lot of shame associated with it.

People who do experience anxiety, um, you know, and, and not, not trusting God fully because they look at the Bible and they think anxiety is a sin, right? I mean, Jesus says, , fear not, or do not be afraid. It's in the Bible over a hundred times in the old Testament and like 44 times in the new Testament.

And, you know, it's as if Jesus knew that we'd all face the temptation to fear, but fear itself. I mean, it's, it's not, it's not a sin, right? Like Jesus experienced fear at times and. I'd love if you could just share, like, the importance of recognizing that, we shouldn't suppress our, our fear and anxiety and shame thinking that it's wrong because those are real human emotions 

Kristi: That's right. In our book, Healthy, Filling, Inspiring Faith, we talk a lot about fear. And shame and anger about emotions and healthy in our emotions because emotions are a gift from God. [00:18:00] We are created in God's image. And one of the aspects of that is being emotional. So we need to understand the right use of emotions and the gift in emotions and how to be healthy with our emotions and our feelings, including shame, including.

Anger, including anxiety, and it is a misinterpretation of scripture to say that fear or anxiety is a sin. That's not what God's saying. That's not what scripture's saying. And oftentimes people will quote, again, back to Philippians 4, be anxious for nothing or do not worry about anything. But actually that's That's not what Paul's saying.

I think the way we typically hear or interpret that is, you know, don't be, don't be anxious. Um, and instead repress your emotion and just, you know, turn your mind to the right thing and do the right thing. But that's not what Paul says. He says, we need to read it like this. When you are really afraid, bring your worries, your concerns, your fears to God who loves you, who's present with you, who [00:19:00] is your source of peace. Um, reorienting in relationship and trust with God by bringing and emotionally connecting. And then as we look at brain science or mental health, as, as a doctor of psychology, I've studied a lot about this. It changes our brain actually when we will get emotionally honest and cast our cares before the Lord.

Like verse Peter says, we're honest with it. We're verbalizing them. The psalmist does this all the time. He's, he prays these beautiful and emotionally honest prayers where he, he just. says to the Lord, he cries out to the Lord, you know, where, where are you? Why have you hidden your face from me? Why have you given me over to my enemies?

You know, how long, oh Lord, must I wrestle with these thoughts and every day have pain in me? Look upon me and answer. Give light to my eyes or I'll sleep to death. The psalm says in Psalm 13, he's very emotionally honest. This is healthy. This is what God wants with us. He wants this intimate. [00:20:00] ongoing conversational relationship with us.

That's what prayer is. It's the same for me with my children. I don't want an eavesdropping relationship with my children. I want them to talk to me. I want an interactional relationship. I want them to ask me for what they need. I want them to tell me what they're feeling. Um, I love them. I care about them.

I want them to trust me in that and bring it all to me. And this is what God invites us to do. Into in a, in a friendship, in an intimacy, in a adopting us as his children. And so we need to recognize that that's what scripture is inviting us to do not repress our emotion. And one of the things we write about in our book, healthy feelings, striking faith is that anxiety actually is repressed emotion. Fear and anxiety, they're, they're, they're different. Fear is a concrete, specific, I am afraid of a snake. I am afraid of, it's, it's very specifically concrete what we're afraid of. Anxiety is when we're crushing [00:21:00] our emotions, we're trying to distract them, we're trying to numb them, we're trying to stuff them, we're trying to, we're ruminating and problem solving on them, but we're not, we're, we're actually not, Being willing to explore and understand them, and then once again, bring them into relationship with God.

And often time in order to bring them into relationship with God at first, especially if we, we have a lot still learning, growing in our intimacy with God, we especially need the help of somebody else who can, who can really mediate His presence, His listening, His empathy, can pray for us, can help us experience His presence, and learn healthy soul care practices that actually, Jesus lived, and the scripture teaches us, and that's one of the things we, in each of our books, we, we teach and we model healthy soul care practices, because we need to retrain our body in these rhythms of 

grace and peace and relaxation and connection with [00:22:00] God.

Jacqueline: I love that. And what are some of those practices, Kristi? I mean, we, we touched on a few of them, and I know that you and Bill talk a lot about breath prayers, and I love this concept. I think it is so beautiful, so I'd love if you could just share a little bit about what that is, for listeners, in addition to any other practices that even you yourself use on a, on a daily basis.

Kristi: Well, I'm so glad that you've asked that because breast prayers are a really great soul care practice. They have been a great blessing to me personally and to those I've been blessed to share them with. And really all it is, is taking, it's, it's also to use different language, Jacqueline, like you used at the beginning of our conversation, it's a way to abide as well, abide in scripture, abide in prayer, abide in Christ.

It's a, it's another way to get out of the unhealthy rumination. Amen. Amen. And into meditating on scripture. So really all that it is, is pairing our breathing deep and slow breathing, which we know helps our bodies to relax, helps our bodies [00:23:00] to de stress. And as we pair the deep and slow breathing and really letting this.

Take in the oxygen that we need and letting that oxygen get into every cell and to fill our brain Which actually is very helpful physiologically for stress and anxiety and fear but also as we're turning our mind to a scriptural truth and using that even as a pocket lighter to jumpstart our prayers in our faith, in our, our connection with God with us.

It can be so powerful and so helpful. So there's a couple that are some of my favorite. One of them comes out of the prayer that Jesus actually prayed on the cross. And Jesus prayed this prayer, Prayer on the cross out of Psalm 31, and he prayed this prayer of Father into your hands I commit my spirit.

And so, just to pray that slowly as we, [00:24:00] as we are feeling fearful can be so helpful. So, In this psalm, Psalm 31 verses 1 to 5, let me just read this psalm to you real quick and then I'm going to take that last stanza, verse 5, 

and model this soul care practice, and we can do it together, and our listeners can do

it too, and experience this soul care practice, because I think that's, we're real big, and we're practitioners, and we're real big, and we need experiential learning.

So, um, just to, now Jesus paid this on the cross, and he was probably, Praying the whole psalm and recalling the whole psalm, which I'm sure he had memorized, um, as he was suffering in his body terribly, and I'm sure feeling such fear. And so he's saying, In you, O Lord, I do take refuge. Never let me put to shame.

In your righteousness, deliver me. Incline your ear to me, rescue me speedily. Be a rock of refuge for me, a strong fortress to save me. For you are my rock and my fortress. For your [00:25:00] namesake, you lead me and guide me. You take me out of the net they've hidden from me. For you are my refuge. Into your hand, I commit my spirit.

You see, Jesus was in that spiritual reality. We're talking about him, not Herod's kingdom, not Pilate's empire, but he was in the kingdom of his father, trusting his father's love, trusting his father's will, trusting that his father was his refuge. His father was his savior in this time of great suffering and persecution.

trusting that God was allowing this for good and would work it for good. And so in the midst of his suffering, in the midst of his war, the most pain anyone, human has experienced and emotional pain as well as physical pain. He was praying this and it's a model prayer for us. So we can pray it by just breathing in really deeply, Father, just trusting that God was allowing this for good and [00:26:00] would work it for good.

Picturing God delighting us, his love for us, his smile over us, which is in scripture in all kinds of verses, like Zephaniah 3, 17. And then as we breathe out that deep breath into your hands, I commend my spirit. And as we slow our breathing down, we wait to take a breath. We feel our desperation for the breath. It's a reminder that we're more desperate for God than we are that next breath. He's actually the breath of life. And then as we inhale, Father, calling out to our good Father, you might even smile, returning his smile of delight for you. And then into your hands, I commit my spirit. As we exhale, just exhale out the stress in your body, the tension in your muscles.

Just letting your body relax deeply into the [00:27:00] chair that's holding you at the floor of your bed. And with each breath, practicing the rhythm over and over, where you're really going deeper and breathing in oxygen, and receiving God's grace through the breath, letting it penetrate every cell. Just think of God's grace and love in that.

And I'm seeing Him right here, with you, hearing you, caring for you, and into your hands. I commit my spirit, not mine, not my own rumination, problem solving, not my ability to control things with my decisions, not other people that are telling me what to do. not physical circumstances that I'm facing for reality.

To you and your loving will and your sovereign good purposes. Because God knows the resurrection is coming. He knows he's the one, like he promises, that's working it all for good. who redeems [00:28:00] it all. None of our suffering is wasted. So we're just immersing ourself physiologically, meditating mentally on this truth as we pray this breath prayer over and over.

We can pray this breath prayer for ourself. We can pray this breath prayer when our stress is about somebody else. So oftentimes with one of my children, I'll pray this breath prayer, Father. Into your hand I commit and I'll name my child and I'll name even the struggle or the temptation I'm having to worry and ruminate in their life with problem or for Somebody else that I'm, I'm journeying with, that I'm companioning with, that I've been listening to and I've been empathizing with.

And maybe as I walk away I find myself kind of holding on to their pain or stress. I've contained it, but I've received it. And I need to let it go to the Lord. I'll pray this prayer to help me release it to them and intercede for them. So it can be a great tool, a great gift, a great self care practice to pray in many different circumstances.

[00:29:00] Um, there's another one I love, Psalm 62. We, we put together a whole breath prayer guide with over 40 scriptures, breath prayers with 

different rhythms of breathing. 

Jacqueline: that Kristi 

Kristi: it's wonderful. I love it all the time because it's just a great tool. You can just turn to one that fits your situation. You change up the breathing patterns, but, and, and they all have ways to pray them for yourself or for others, or and often I'll pray for me first and then 

I'll pray it for another.

But, um, Psalm 62 says in Christ alone, my soul finds rest. It actually says in God alone, but in Christ alone, because that is Jesus. It just helps me to remember and re center again, no, it's not in my own ability to secure myself, it's not in other people's behaviors or thoughts about me, it's not in the resources that I have, it's not in what I do, it's in Christ 

that my soul is.

Jacqueline: Amen.

Kristi: And just to pray that and to train my body in [00:30:00] that reality. Through some deep and slow breathing, I can re center there really quickly when I find myself feeling stress in my body and it, you know, that comes out in such different ways, whether it's, you know, flooding to and fro, whether it's ants in my pants, butterflies in my stomach, sweat in my palms, you know, there's different ways that the anxiety manifests but I can, I can tune in and recognize when it's manifesting and I can start praying that breath very quickly, my body will change and get out of that stress.

Jacqueline: I love that. And one thing I really love about that too, Kristi, is, I mean, we hear people talk about meditation all the time, and I think, I mean, at least I originally thought that meditation meant just clearing your mind, right? You hear folks talking about sit down, clear your mind. And like, at first I was like, this is really challenging.

And then I, I was wondering, I was like, but why am I clearing my mind when I'm supposed to be filling my mind? Right. But filling your mind with God's word. So this is such a beautiful practice because it reflects what [00:31:00] true meditation should be. You're meditating on God. And it's also addressing the, you know, replacing your, your old thoughts with truth while also, like you said, being able to calm your body physiologically.

So it's, it's just so beautiful. And, and I find to, um, my aunt, my dad's sister has been an incredible spiritual mentor to me. And whenever I'm dealing with some type of anxiety, she goes , just, just speak the word, speak the word. And when I was younger, I was like, aunt Marianne, I was like, you know, like that doesn't do anything.

I could talk out loud, but. The more I grow in my spiritual journey, again, I'm 29. I still have a ways to go, but I've really learned that there, you know, God's word is sharper than a two edged sword. Right. And there is power in speaking the word of God over your life. So I'm a big fan of, you know, affirmations and.

You know, just, just speaking the truth. Anytime I have a, an anxious thought, my neighbors in my apartment probably think I'm crazy. They could probably hear me through the walls, but I'll just be speaking the truth and, and it, it really [00:32:00] does make a difference and it trains your 

Kristi: That's right. 

Jacqueline: right? 

To focus on what is truth versus, you know, your emotions and what you're, you're feeling temporarily.

Kristi: right. Yeah. Scripture meditation is powerful. It's powerful for us physically, mentally, emotionally, and emotionally, and that's why the Soul Shepherding would produce three scripture meditation guides, three different kinds of them. Um, one's about 40, has 40 meditations, the breath prayers. Other one has scripture passages that are a little bit longer that you could do deeper and longer scripture meditation.

And, and then they're also, they're Ignatian meditation, Lectio Divina. And then the breath prayer guides and there can be done in groups too. We, we use them a lot in groups. We use them on our retreats that we lead. And that's another soul care practice. That's just really helpful is to get away on a retreat and get some training and practice in community.

In these self care practices, get away, get some space from the frenetic pace that we live in, [00:33:00] where you can get some space from all of the noise we hear and the stress that we experience in our society. So, at Self Shepherding, we do five days. retreats together in community in a beautiful retreat center.

And we would love any you to join us for, for one or for all four of those retreats. We do, we have four different topics. Uh, you can jump into any one of them where you could do all four of them. And we also train spiritual directors and that's because we believe that's a really crucial. soul care practice to meet with a spiritual director.

So that's why we have a staff of 60 spiritual directors. You can meet with online. You could go to soulshepherdy. org right now, book an appointment on zoom to meet with a spiritual director on zoom, because we really think that we need to learn these practices from somebody else with somebody else. We need a companion 

So doing that and having a place to take care of your soul, just to be honest with yourself and to check in with what's going on and [00:34:00] what are you feeling? Oftentimes in spiritual direction, I'll hear myself say something that surprises me and I'll go, I didn't even realize I was doing that until I said it now, or somebody else will be listening to me and then they'll say, well, let's go back to, you said this.

It's, I wonder, it seems like you might be feeling this. So that kind of like. Oh, yes. Thank you. That's so helpful that you were able to perceive that. 

And that's right. That's where I've been stuck. And so it's just so helpful to have that. That is an ongoing soul care practice as well. And then as you mentioned, our podcast soul talks, Bill and I have a 

soul talk, um, together.

That's what our podcast is. And that's really helpful just, just to be able to have an organic soul talk with a friend. If you don't have a spiritual director, um, or you You don't, you know, want to dive into spiritual direction yet, then just having a soul talk with somebody. Listen to our podcast, or listen to this podcast, and then have a conversation with somebody about it, [00:35:00] where you're, you're processing it together and then pray for each other.

Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that. Well, first of all, Kristi, the opportunity to attend one of your retreats is on my list. So I, one day, Lord willing, hope to attend. I know there was one back in June. It was my birthday week. So I actually wasn't, I was visiting my parents and I flew home, but one day I'd, I'd really love to attend one of those 

retreats. And another reason I love, um, That concept is because it really does give you time to just unplug and I was I think one of I mean I don't know how recent it was but one of your episodes on your podcast you and Bill were talking about Boredom and how you know people avoid boredom and I was just thinking about this and you know I find this in myself.

I feel the need to always keep busy for a variety of reasons But at the heart of it, I think it's because whenever we're busy, be that working or listening to a podcast or listening to music, some, some type of stimulus, we don't have time to feel what we're feeling or think [00:36:00] thoughts that we're, we're scared of, right?

And I think the irony is that it creates a type of vicious cycle where, you know, to our point earlier about suppressing emotions and thoughts, you know, it's just, it feeds into that cycle. So. Having silence every day, I've, I've changed my routine. I used to be one of those people that would walk in the morning with the headphones on and always a podcast going on thinking I was being productive and learning something and not wasting time.

And I realized. That actually has the opposite effect. And now I go for my morning walks in complete silence and I'll just observe and listen to nature and I'll do a prayer walk. I love prayer walks where I could just talk with God. Um, and I found too, in the past, I tend to, to talk more to God rather than listen to him.

Um, and I have struggled with listening to him and I think that's the beauty of these breath prayers, we're [00:37:00] able to. To help create a channel for us to better do that for people who are struggling with, with hearing God's voice, what are some ways that, you know, things they could tap into to, to help better discern what he's saying.

And you highlighted before when you were, serving as a spiritual director to someone else, you hear things come out in yourself that God might be telling you, you need it. So certainly through those. Soul conversations, but beyond that, you know, what what can people do?

Kristi: great question. Thank you for that. Um, in our book, Journey of the Soul, and when I say our, my husband Bill and I, chapter eight is all about hearing God. And so we've got a lot of great information. We also have a booklet in our shop on soulchef. org on hearing God, an ebook that you can just download that goes into some, some great tools and practices.

and understandings decrease our ability to hear God. But one of those things is absolutely what you say, Jacqueline, in your practicing, is making space [00:38:00] to push out all the other noise and to lean into time alone in silence with the Lord to make that space. And even to pray the breath prayer that little Samuel prayed, um, in 1 Samuel, speak Lord, your servant is listening.

And just pray that to help you. Quiet the noise in your mind and continue to listen to the Lord But also our legacy of divinity guides our ignition meditation guides are great practices that can help us listen to the Lord as well as some of the soul care practices in our books help us to listen to the Lord.

But oftentimes we need some training in this. We, we need to practice it in community with somebody, um, in order to learn it because it isn't learning. It is a soul training to learn to be quiet and to be still and to tune in to God's self. And small voice. And then to be able to process that with the spiritual director can also be helpful because often times when we, we're afraid that we can't hear [00:39:00] God's voice or we're afraid that I'm not sure I really heard that voice.

How do I know if that's got voice or if that was just 

my own thought or if that was like a mental tape from an internalized parent from, you know, from my childhood or, or some other authority figure. And so having a spiritual director who can play with us and listen with us, help us discern and explore that is really important for us and somebody can help us discern because unfortunately there are people that oftentimes will even hear the voice of the enemy, the accuser.

And think it's God and, and think it's God, you know, condemning that, which is not the voice of God. And so oftentimes we need somebody else to be able to say, no, that doesn't sound like the voice of God to me. That's not consistent with the God of scripture. That's not consistent with the God of love.

That sounds more like, the accuser, the wolf coming to you in sheep's clothing. And so we, we often need somebody else who can companion us in our journey and help us with [00:40:00] the discernment of that as well. But we have discernment points. We list about eight discernment points for testing. What were you thinking like for God?

Um, that can be very helpful. As well. So it's a journey. It's something we grow in, something we increase in, but it starts with the desire to.

Jacqueline: right. And one verse too, Kristi, that just came to my mind. Um, I think it's in Psalms. It's, you know, whether you walk to the left or the right, you will hear a voice saying, this is the way walk in it. And I've taken a lot of comfort in that because again, you know, if God is guiding our steps, we can be confident that he is leading us.

in the right direction. Um, and that's given me a lot of peace. And I mean, even to with my mom, I don't know, Kristi, if you've, you know, my story, but I started well and strong the blog about four years ago. Um, my mom was diagnosed with a recurrence of breast cancer in 2018, uh, that [00:41:00] metastasized. So she's been dealing with stage four cancer for the past six years.

But, um, It has certainly been a journey. Um, and I think the most painful thing for me is to see someone that, you know, I love more than anyone in the world suffer. So. With that, I certainly have learned a lot, and I've also learned that, you know, God draws near to us in seasons of suffering and anxiety, and I have never felt more close to God than during those seasons of extreme anxiety, right?

And just not understanding, um, but with that too, I mean, it could also go the opposite end of the spectrum, where someone experiences You know, extreme suffering and they turn from God. So for someone who is going through a hard time right now, be that a medical issue, caring for a loved one, or just even a breakup, right?

Loss of a relationship. What words could you offer to them? In terms of, you know, how can they draw close to God if they're asking, you know, why could a [00:42:00] sovereign guide permit this?

Kristi: Yeah. Thank you, Jacqueline, for that and for the choice that you've made. I so respect you for choosing to not just throw away this trial, this, this. pain, the suffering, but actually lean into it and let yourself grow. And that's really is the choice we have to make when we get trials and crises and sufferings, which we all learned.

Um, how are, how are we going to respond and who are we going to trust? Are we going to rely on ourself for our own security and our own ability to, um, bring good out of this or to, to get through it or to secure ourself in it, to manage it, control it? Or are we going to really trust that there's something here?

that I cannot understand. I remember when I was at my wall, um, time, my [00:43:00] crisis time, one of the things I realized is that I was judging God based on my circumstances, instead of judging my circumstances based on what I knew to be true about God and His, and His goodness. And that perspective change makes a huge, And I constantly have to reorient again, because I will find myself tempted to judge God based on circumstances that are not what I want. And remind myself again, no, I need to see new circumstances, and I don't, the truth about God and His love. And that is very reorienting for me, and trust for God, and in, in peace, and it's so much better to go through suffering. with God, trusting him than it is on my own, distrusting him, angry at him.

Doesn't mean that being angry at him is, is wrong or is a sin. God allows that. Job was angry at God in his suffering. Job spoke words of anger and God even said, Job spoke rightly about [00:44:00] me. Um, because God had empathy for Job and where he was coming from. And so God wants us to be honest about our experience. But he also wants us to see through our experience to the greater reality of his goodness, his love, his sovereignty that he is. He is with us. He will not forsake us, but he will redeem us. And as I look back into areas of, of suffering and trials and pain that I've gone through, times when I felt abandoned by God, times when I was angry at God, time when I couldn't see his goodness and love in my life story.

As I look back, I'm so grateful that I am now able to see it and actually even be thankful for those times and those experiences and those sufferings because of the good that God brought. about through them. And that's one of the things we can remind ourselves is that I can't see the whole picture in my time of suffering.

I can't see the wholeness of the goodness of what [00:45:00] God is doing and letting it take place in my time of suffering, in my time. And God knows that. You're just, he, he, gives us the opportunity to say, and will you, Be able to say like, like Joseph says, though he slay me, yet I will trust him and trust that he will make it all all right in the end that it will all that we will end up being able to truly and genuinely and with integrity and authenticity praise the Lord, even for our trials.

And 1 of the things that that helps us do that is to. connect with Jesus in his suffering and to remember that he, he is with us and that he experienced for us in our suffering, in our trial, um, to 

know we're not alone because we can't go through it alone.

Jacqueline: [00:46:00] Yeah. Amen. That, that was beautiful. Such truth. And also too, what's helped me is to recognize. It's in suffering that no purpose of God's can be thwarted for our lives, whatever we are going through. Right. And you mentioned the phrase looking back, how you can look back now and see how God worked it out. A practice that's been really helpful for me, Christie, and I'm sure you've done this too, is I keep a journal of all the times in the past where I thought it was the end of the world and I didn't know how God was going to make a way.

Right. Right. And God came through for me. And anytime I, I doubt or I question God, what are you doing in this? I don't see good from this. How are you, how are you using this? I look back at all those times in my journal and I'm like, you know what? But God came through. Every single one of these times he's gonna come through again because he is faithful.

And also to Kristi, I'll share with you. I think it's so beautiful when God places little reminders in our lives just to say, you know, I I'm [00:47:00] here. I see you because sometimes I think, you know, God has so much to do. There's so much in the world. So many people who need him, but He, he's everywhere.

He's omniscient. He knows all. And, and he's, you know, he's with us right now. And the other day, um, I, I had a pretty large medical bill from something earlier this year that I had to pay out of pocket and it was a little bit stressful for me. And I had a feeling my insurance wasn't going to cover it. And this past Tuesday, Kristi, I got a check in the mail from my insurance company that covered everything.

The cool part was that right after I opened that check, I opened up, um, I like to have quotes sometimes I just like paste on my wall just to remind me of things, you know, Bible verses and whatnot. And the quote that I happened to pick like months ago that finally arrived was for nothing shall be impossible with God.

And that was the first thing I opened up after that check. And I just started crying because I just saw that. [00:48:00] And I was like, wow. God sees me and that was just a beautiful little reminder that he is there and he will come through and even after all these months, I was like, How am I going to make this up?

He was working, you know, and I didn't even know it. So

just another example of like, like, he's working when we don't see it. You know, he's, he's always there and he's always working. Um, and I think too, I've, I've kind of come to terms with, we might not always see Like the redemption on this side of eternity, right?

But on the new earth, when we get to heaven, like we will see God's plan and how he redeemed things. And that's brought me a lot of comfort to, have you read the book heaven by Randy Alcorn?

Kristi: yes, I have.

Jacqueline: Kristi, I love that book. My aunt sent it to me about, I don't know, a month or so ago.

I'm probably 60 percent through because it's so dense and I always want to refer back to the Bible and like really, you know, absorb it. But it, [00:49:00] it has been so encouraging for me. and for listeners, it just, it talks through revelation and it talks all about the new earth and our roles and things that I've never really like thought of before.

Cause I, I feel like revelation is the one book of the Bible that people tend to ignore. There's a lot of imagery. There's a lot of, it's a little scary at times, but. This book just unpacks it and it just shows you what heaven and God's plan for the new earth is and it's so beautiful and it really does change the way you live your life here because they realize our life is a vapor, right?

Like one day we're here and the next, you know, only God knows, but if we can live for eternity here, And that includes recognizing that God has purpose in our suffering and just to understand that, Hey, you know, whether we understand that now during our lives on earth or in heaven, like his purposes will stand and he has good plans and he uses everything [00:50:00] for our good in his glory.

Um, so that's brought me a lot of, a lot of peace to just coming full circle with the ruminating thoughts, how he started the conversation. It's just 

realizing, like, just surrender that to God and trust that he has a good plan.

Kristi: Yes. So good. And I love the way that you illustrate it there with your. Through journaling, how you are journaling, making, as scripture talks about, memorial stones, remembering what God has said to you and referring back to it, remembering what God has done when you see breakthroughs like this check coming in the mail and it's a reminder I'm with you, I'm your provider, I've heard your prayers.

concern and worry about how you were going to cover this and acting in your life and you're reminding yourself as you make note of that to go back and refer and to remember that's something that God instructs us to do over and over and over again in scripture to remember what he's done because it builds our faith and our [00:51:00] trust in him and helps us stay oriented in trusting him and helps us know that's a good thing to turn from ruminating to back to Revisiting those memorials of those times when 

we have experienced God's, care, His provision, His answer to our prayer, a word from Him.

Jacqueline: Yeah. And human human nature too. I mean, I feel like it's so easy to forget, right? Like if someone asks you, what did you get for Christmas last year? We don't remember the goodness of, you know, the family or friends who, who gave us that present. So it's just, yeah, it's beautiful to have a, a reminder.

Kristi: Yes. 

Jacqueline: Well, Kristi,

I do want to be conscious of your time. I know we're coming up on the hour. This has been one of my favorite conversations to date, and I know it's going to encourage and bless a lot of listeners. I certainly will be linking, , your books, your podcast, everything you mentioned in the show notes so folks can have access to those.

Um, but aside from that, where else can listeners find you?

Kristi: org is the place that has it all. You can [00:52:00] check out our books, our resources, free, um, our many soul care resources. opportunities there. You can be a spiritual director, you can check out our retreats. We'd love to get to meet you in person and journey with you. And

Jacqueline, it's such a joy to get to have this conversation with you.

Thank you for your love for Jesus, your devotion to him. Thank you for being here. Being a wounded healer through your own suffering, offering other people healing and hope with the universe of Christ to them. Thank you to all of you listeners for tuning in and, and learning and growing together. And such an honor for me to be a part of this, to this conversation today,

Jacqueline: You're so sweet, Kristi. I do have one last question for you, but before that, would you mind saying a prayer for us 

right now and for everyone listening?

Kristi: Jesus, Thank you for your great love for each person hearing my voice right now. Your personal knowledge of them, [00:53:00] your intimate knowledge of them. Thank you for drawing them to tune in to this conversation today. Thank you for helping them to stick with it, to stay, to keep listening, and Lord, I pray in us, even as they go now.

As this conversation ends, that they would continue their conversation with you. And that you would continue to reveal your love, your presence, your power and favor for them. And that they would respond to your grace and your mercy. And that you would continue to draw them into deeper intimacy with you.

And to lead them and shepherd them. You are their good shepherd. Help them to trust you. Help them. To make space, to tune into you, to listen to your voice, to dwell with you, to abide in you, your word, that you are the one that restores. [00:54:00] their soul and guides them down the right. And Lord, thank you that you promised that you'll never leave them and that they can dwell with you now and forever in Jesus name.

Jacqueline: Amen. Thank you, Kristi. That was beautiful. My last question for you, this is always my favorite to ask, and that is, what does being well and strong mean to you?

Kristi: Thank you. It means to me to be first of all, well and strong spiritually in my relationship with God. And that means that I am able to be really centered in that relationship of trust and attunement and attachment to Jesus in, in all things. And to be emotionally healthy with staying current with my own emotional process and honest and open interrelationship with God and myself and others so that those emotions don't get in the way and distort my spiritual [00:55:00] health, life, and God.

Jacqueline: I love that. Beautiful. Kristi, it was such a blessing to meet you. I'm really excited to share this conversation and thank you for all that you do. And I hope to have you on again at some point soon.

Kristi: Thank you, Jacqueline. God bless you and each listening in with us today. 


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Jacqueline Genova

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