How To Be WellnStrong

73: How to Cultivate Deeper Relationships | Meredith Boggs

• Jacqueline Genova • Episode 73

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Today we’re talking about the Enneagram and how it can help us grow in our relationships. For those of you not familiar with the enneagram test, it’s a personality assessment that helps us understand our emotions and motivations at a deeper level. It also helps us understand and connect with the people we love, whether that’s a friend or our family, our coworkers or our spouse. That’s why I’m so excited my new friend Meredith Boggs to the show today. Meredith is an expert when it comes to the Enneagram and is the author of the book, The Journey Home; A Biblical Guide to Using the Enneagram to Deepen Your Faith and Relationships. In this episode, Meredith provides an overview of each Enneagram type, as well as each type’s core emotions, stress and security expressions, and primary defense mechanisms. Meredith also explains what the enneagram is (and what it’s not), and how it can serve as an effective tool for emotional health, empathy, and discipleship.

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*Unedited Transcript*
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Meredith: [00:00:00] I'm so thrilled to be here. I love your podcast by the way when you

when you sent it I was like, how do I not know about this? You had all these people on there that I was like, oh, yeah I follow these people. I love these people. So I have loved listening to it the last few weeks.

It's been really

fun 

Jacqueline: Well, I love you and your work. And I first heard about you on Stephanie May Wilson's podcast. And it's so funny, Meredith, you're going to laugh because I started listening to Stephanie like back in 2020, right after a breakup.

never never heard of her before. And She like helped me. She like walked me through like the stages of my breakup without even knowing it through her podcast.

And then when I started my podcast last year, I was like, you know what? Who are the people I've always wanted to have on? And Stephanie just. And then 

Meredith: is amazing 

Jacqueline: yeah, and I had a chance to sit down with her like a couple weeks ago. And it was just so surreal. And then I obviously listened to Stephanie's podcast and that's where I learned about you from Girl's Night podcast.

And I just right away, I loved your work. I read your book. I'm a big fan.

Meredith: Oh,[00:01:00] 

thank you.

Jacqueline: reading it yesterday as, as I was like, trying to prep. There's just so much good information in here. But one thing with well and strong to Meredith is that, I've been expanding beyond just like physical health concepts.

Right. And I think, I mean, a lot of the content that I found has resonated most with my listeners and my audience has to do with emotional health, mental health, spiritual health, understanding relationships. And I love the Enneagram. I like recently got into this in the past like year or so. So I was like, I really want to have an episode on this.

And again, I love your work. I mean, you've written on so many different topics, but. Especially Enneagram. And I was like, she is the person to have

Meredith: Yeah.

Jacqueline: to discuss this.

Meredith: thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's been, um, it's been fun to just kind of, the book came out last January, was it last January? Yes. Lived a lot of life between now and then. I, my book came out and then my second son was born like six [00:02:00] weeks later. 

And then Charlotte, who was just born, was our surprise for 2024.

Now we look like there's no shame. Like she's, Her older brother, I was like 10 months postpartum when I got pregnant again, and people are like, oh my gosh, and I'm like, yeah, oh my gosh, um, and so now I feel like my book came out five years ago. I'm like, I don't even know when I read that. Um, and I wrote it, it's funny, I wrote it, I got the book contract, I found out I was getting published when I was in the hospital with my first, so that was like February of 

21, and then spent the whole year writing the book.

So I'm like, I don't even know when in life this happened, but um. But it's been fun to just see, to see where it goes and, um, and just to continue having these conversations. So, um, I was thinking about this while you were talking. I don't know if you're looking for other people to interview. But, um, Hannah Seymour is good friends with Stephanie.

Do you know who she is? 

Okay. 

Jacqueline: Meredith, I, she was in the back of my mind. I was like, I really want to have her on at some point too. She's on my, like, list.

Meredith: amazing. Yeah, she's amazing. I, and she's also like, she's got three [00:03:00] kids. I think she homeschools like three days a week and then she works two days a week. She just graduated seminary. So she's like crazy, but I know, but she always, she's one of those people that I'm like, you always find time to do things.

So she, she would be amazing from a

spiritual growth perspective. Um, she wrote a book too. It's been, uh, it's been several years since it came out, but it's for college age girls. And she's just, she's just wealth of knowledge all the way around.

Jacqueline: You guys are super moms. You are like goals. I'm just like beyond impressed with like everything you're doing.

Meredith: Oh, you're sweet. Thank you.

Jacqueline: So to kick things off for listeners who are unfamiliar with the Enneagram, how would you describe it and what sets it apart from other personality frameworks?

And I'll start by saying like my first exposure to any type of personality test was freshman year of college. We did the disc assessment and I like never even heard of it before. And then when I got my results, I was like, wow, this is actually. really enlightening and really true. And yeah, [00:04:00] and that's when I kind of started dipping my toes into like the personality test, but yeah, what is the Enneagram test and how is it different from, from those other ones?

Meredith: yes, I love this. I love starting with this question. So I always tell people I always group it with other personality tests because it's the easiest way to explain it But it's really very unlike the other ones because all the other personality tests like you mentioned the disc Which I love Myers Briggs, which is also a fantastic one.

Those are all based on your actions or Kind of like your behaviors and the Enneagram doesn't care about your behaviors. It cares about your motivation. And so the Enneagram really gets to that deeper level. And so there's kind of a surface level Enneagram, know your type, kind of figure out where you fit.

But then as you start, it's kind of like an onion. As you peel back, there's more layers of core emotions, core fears, core, Desire sinks that drive each type and when you get down to that layer, you realize oh, this doesn't doesn't Any room doesn't care about the way whether I'm an introvert or an extrovert or whether I'm you know Direct or dominant or sensing or all these things it really gets to [00:05:00] what motivates you to do what you do So that's the way that I describe it to people I'm like it is like a personality assessment test but it's not because it has nothing to do with your personality as really more to do with your with your Motivation

Jacqueline: so interesting. How did you get into this? Like you've, I mean, you wrote an incredible book on it. It's called The Journey Home for Listeners. I'll be linking in the show notes, but it is just so rich. And as I was reading, I was like, how did she learn so much about it? Like what prompted this interest?

Meredith: Yeah. Well, it's funny. So I was originally introduced to it when I was a sophomore in high school. So, um, almost 20 years ago. Yeah. And I was in counseling at the time for an eating disorder. And it's funny, um, now, like the counseling ministry that I go to, is Sissy Goff. She was my counselor. So if you've read, um, she's written tons of books.

They've, um, have, she has a podcast with David Thomas and they've like blown up all over the place. So 

it's 

really funny to see them there. It's really, it's geared more towards parents. So if, you know, if your audience has kids, they're probably like, yeah, I've heard of. I've heard of them. Um, but anyway, she was my counselor at the time [00:06:00] and Daystar Counseling Ministries, they use the Enneagram as a framework to help their, um, the kids that came through their practice and also the parents.

And so I was introduced to it that way. And it's funny. Um, I remember going through, um, it's called, it's called Enneagram Made Easy and it was geared more towards kids and families and went through it, took the test and it was like 20 questions. So you check all the boxes tallied up and I scored, I think I scored like, A hundred percent, a one, a type one and she was like, here, I want you to take this book home and I want you to read it and I just want you to see if you think that that's, that actually is right and she's like, read a couple other types too, you know, if you want to read them all.

So I read, I read the whole book and when I got to the chapter on the type eight, I was like, oh my gosh, no, this is it. It's not a type one. And so I always tell people, this is kind of where a caveat and say, this Test are great. They're really helpful as like a diving board as a springboard into figuring out, because it's overwhelming.

It's nine types. That's a lot to read up on or listen to podcasts about, but I always tell people, I'm like, take a test, see what your top three, um, see what you [00:07:00] score top three as, and then kind of go in that direction and read because tests, they're only so, I mean, they're subjective. Um, and so even, even the.

Well written and statistically validated ones can only be so accurate. And so, um, yeah, so I read it and I was like, oh my goodness I am a type 8. I'm not a type 1. And so what I tell people is Looking at it in that context at that time. I like it made sense I was a type 1 a type 1 is a perfectionist They're very black and white very by the book and I was in counseling for an eating disorder So a lot of my behaviors aligned with that a lot of the way that I was showing up in the world Made sense.

But when I read about the motivation and really what, um, the core desires and fears were of an eight, I was like, Oh no, this is actually it. So that's how I was first introduced to it. Um, and at the time, nobody knew what the Enneagram was. It was 

this super weird thing. Only other kids at Daystar knew what it was.

Um, and then, um, It was not the cool gizmo at the time. It was like something weird that you like didn't talk about because people were like, that's super weird. It also looks like a pentagram, like it's just some kind of [00:08:00] weird cult thing. And you're like, no, it's not. I promise. It's an Enneagram, not a pentagram.

But then it was, um, but it really did help me in high school and college, just kind of knowing myself and as you're coming of age and really, um, just really formative times in your life of knowing yourself and like seeing how you show up in the world and understanding other people and your relationships and dynamics.

Um, and it really wasn't until I think my mid twenties when, um, Um, when The Road Back to You, when Ian Caron and Suzanne Stubiel came out with that book, and that was kind of like the big boom in the Enneagram world, and people were like, oh, what is this thing? This is so cool. And it's like, well, this has actually been around for a long time.

Um, but that was kind of when it came back in my life and also a really, really formative season. Um, once I was kind of in https: otter. ai profession and, um, and it really helped me kind of dig through and sort out some things, um, that I'd been working through and, so anyways, it's been, I'm, you know, it's been part of my life for a long time, but then it was, it was really after that that I started writing about it and, 

Jacqueline: Yeah, 

that is so cool. And I love that because [00:09:00] that was my question. I already addressed it, but I was like, what, like, how do we find out exactly what our type is? And I've taken a handful of tests. I mean, if you just Google, I need a gram, there's like dozens that come up. And I remember like, I want to say I took one back in college and I think I came up as like a type three, but I did take, have you heard of soul shepherding with Bill and Christy Gaultier?

Yeah. So I actually had Christy on the podcast literally like last

week and they have an Enneagram test on their site that I took and interestingly, Meredith, my results, unlike they break it down by, like you said, like percentages of like, you know, 

the different types. So I came back as like. 100 percent type 1, 100 percent type 7, and then like 92 percent type 3 and 92 percent type 4.

So I was like, yesterday, reading through your book on like all of

these. And it was so interesting though, Meredith, because like, all of them in a weird way, like resonated with me. So, Is it possible for [00:10:00] someone to be like more than one? Like I feel like I'm a divergent because like I don't 

Meredith: Yeah. Yes. 

Jacqueline: one group.

Meredith: Yeah. It's funny. Even as you were saying that, the types, I was like, Oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That makes sense. I'm the one I, so part of what, one of the things that I love to do, I don't do it a ton anymore is I'll do like Enneagram. Um, like I'll do it like a half day retreat or full day retreat.

And it's usually with small businesses or teams and I take all their results. And I see a lot of of types, like you just said, that like, Oh, I scored as a type one, but also really high as a seven and also three. There's a lot of patterns. I feel like that I've seen over the years and it's so fun. Um, but even when you were saying that, I, I get that question a lot.

People are like, Oh, well, you know, I'm like a hundred percent this, a hundred percent that, and can I be both? Or, you know, it's saying this, but I just don't resonate with that.

And you know, what I tell people is yes. Well, and what I tell people is, I think the Enneagram is really helpful, but also, if, like, if you're starting to truly have an identity crisis because of your Enneagram type, then, like, we've taken it too far.

Um, like, it should be helpful, and it should be fun, [00:11:00] and it should be really, um, like, enlightening, too, to help you, to help you understand yourself, but, um, Anyways, back to, back to the original question. I, so what I, what I often see with people is I think that, I think that there's different kind of phases in life.

Um, and, and I'll be, I've been very transparent about this and especially in my book, like I'm not a therapist. I do not have credentials with that. Like everyone has their own big T traumas and little T traumas. And I don't think that, um, I think that you need to examine those separately from the Enneagram.

Um, and I think that there, there's a lot of ways that. the Enneagram helps you draw, um, correlations. Like I've talked to threes and sevens before that talk about this really addictive kind of sense that they have about themselves. And I'm like, that's really great to know. And also like, you know, The world of addiction is not just distilled down to like threes and sevens.

There's addicts that are all types. And so that's what I always tell people. I'm like, you can't simplify it that much. You can't [00:12:00] distill it down. It's helpful to look at. Um, but I think, I think the older you get, the more that you mature, the more that you evolve, just more life circumstances you have, you begin to see things a little bit more, Hopefully we begin to see things a little bit more gray because we're empathizing with others But our convictions are a little bit more black and white and we hold those but because of that I think that it makes us a little bit more well rounded and we're like, oh, yeah I can see the seven in me.

I can see the one I can see the three and in reality We're all some like the enneagram is in a box And so you're not just like only a one like you've got some color of a seven or some tendencies of a three And so I think that's a really beautiful thing about the enneagram um But I do think that, yeah, if you're kind of getting mixed feedback and you're like, I don't know which one I am, those core fears, the core desires, core emotions are really helpful in guiding that.

Um, because it really, so, I mean, I use my husband as an example. He's a type three and type threes can kind of be known as the chameleons. They, you know, shape shift, they wear different hats based on who they need [00:13:00] to be in what kind of situation. And so sometimes for threes, it's hard for them to, To, to say this is who I am because they can, they can look like a seven.

I'll rat on him because he would say it himself if he was here. But my husband told people for years that he was a seven. And when he first took the Enneagram in high school, he was like, yeah, I'm a seven. Sevens are the cool kids. And he could totally like play that part of being a seven for so long. And then he was like, yeah, no, I'm actually a three.

But but because there is there's a lot of overlap and a lot of characteristics, you can show up kind of this one type.

Jacqueline: Yeah. I love that. So interesting. So here we are talking about like all these different types. And for someone who's never heard of this before, can you provide just a high level like breakdown of each of the types? And again, like you do an incredible job of this in your book, but just for the sake of the podcast, I'd love if you could just break down like the major, I guess, attributes of each type.

Meredith: Yes. Um, so the type 1. You'll hear them call different things based on the author, the teacher, but the type one is known as the reformer, the perfectionist. [00:14:00] They are people of high ideals, high morals, high ethics. That is really their guiding force. They're extremely responsible. They're virtuous. I always say that the ones keep the world from like careening off the side of a mountain.

Like they're the ones that keep us on a straight and narrow of like, this is right. This is wrong. This is good. This is bad. And it's good that we have that because otherwise as a society we would have no backbone and we would have no, we would have no morals. Um, so ones are really kind of that, that guiding force.

Um, they really, they do see the world very black and white, but that's not always a bad thing. Um, we need those people. Um, they, yeah, they're just, they're, um, ones are, they're, they're not afraid to speak up. They're going to let you know if your idea is not going to work or if it's wrong or, you know, this or that.

And so, yeah, that's kind of, that's kind of the ones. Um, type twos, they're known as the helper. They are very deeply loving, caring. They're people, people, um, they're just. compassionate, empathetic. It's just second nature to them. It's not really something that they have to work at. [00:15:00] They just, they just get it.

Um, they're warm. They're approachable. Um, they have a really nurturing energy about them. Um, they're great listeners and, uh, they really, their, their superpower is that they can perceive the needs of others and they want to meet those needs. They're very generous people. They're servant hearted. Um, they really Are there to serve and to love other people?

Um, type threes, they are known as the performer or the achiever. Um, they are very driven, ambitious. They have like an energy that they're going to, they're just going to, they're just going to go do it. And people are going to, stand by and be like, yeah, let's do it. Um, they just, they just have this infectious energy about them.

Um, they're very goal directed, success oriented, not only for themselves, but for other people too. They're big champions. They'll support you in accomplishing your dreams, whatever they are. Um, and threes are really true visionaries. Like they'll see something way out there and they'll be like, yeah, it's totally [00:16:00] possible.

Let's go do it. And they will formulate a strategy and they will figure out how to get there. I'm like, oh, do I go into it a little bit more? Um,

Jacqueline: Let's go into it, Meredith. 

Meredith: Well, I was, I, well, I realized when I got to the Type 3, I was like, oh, I didn't say anything of like the, I think one of the ways that's, Um, I think one of the ways that's really helpful to identify your type is to like, Learn about kind of the shadow side like

what are the what are the pitfalls of each type?

Cuz that's where you really tend to see yourself. You're like, oh no, that's 

Jacqueline: Yeah, I 

Meredith: to 

know about me But then I I realized I realized with the type one and two I didn't go into that at all But I'll go back and do a little recap for ones and twos and then we'll we'll catch up here at three.

So type ones they they struggle with anger and resentment and anger is not bad. I'm really quick to say like emotions are not moral or amoral. They are, they're immoral. They are, they are what they are. Um, and there are ways that they can become, um, you know, if we, if we don't like bridle our anger, yes, it can become very, um, destructive.

[00:17:00] Hello. I'm a type eight. So I'm the first to recognize that and be like, yeah, my anger has been really destructive. Um, but with type ones, their anger sometimes can seep into resentment. Um, and they just, they take on more than they should because other people aren't going to do it right. They're not going to do it up to their standard.

Um, but then they become really resentful of other people. And that anger is kind of like this low festering, um, that just kind of ends up spilling over into everyone. Um, and everything, um, type twos, this is kind of. This is kind of when I say this about type twos, it does not resonate. Um, but they're kind of, um, they're sin tendency or proclivity or, or weakness, whatever, whatever, you know, vocabulary it is that you, um, want to call it.

They, um, theirs is pride. And so it, for type twos, that feels really strange because they do not come across as prideful

people, but how that shows up, they are the helpers. But what often happens is type twos, their help can become sort of prescriptive of like, I know best, [00:18:00] this is what you need, and they want to help only in that way.

And, and it's, it's a, it's a kind of prideful thing to be like, Oh, I know best, I know what you need. Um, and in reality, like, they, they really do have good hearts. They want to love and they want to serve other people. But if they're not checking themselves, and this is for all the types, like, if you're not checking yourself, like, our motives can Our motives can be bad sometimes, or our motives can be self serving.

They're not really about other people. Um, and so that's, that's kind of it for tech to use this. It can, it can become this prideful thing of, um, wanting to do for others what they think they need rather than what the other person is asking for or what. Um, Type threes, they're, they struggle with deceit. Um, and.

And threes. I love threes. I have so many threes in my life and my husband's a

three too. So I 

Jacqueline: what's the nature makeup of like your family and closest friends, like

Meredith: yeah. So, well, what's funny is I have a lot of ones in my life. Um, and, and I [00:19:00] love ones. And. Yeah, so I have a lot of ones in my life. I also have a lot of threes in my life and a lot of nines too. Um, it's just, yeah, it's, it's funny. Um, also have some twos here and there and, um, Yeah, anyways, it, it's funny.

It's, there's sometimes, it's like, I wonder if I'm like that because of how many ones I have in my life,

or, you know, all threes, being married to a three, I wonder if I'm like that. Um, but threes, they can struggle with deceit, and it's more like this inauthenticity that they, um, at the, at the core, threes want to be loved, they want to be valued, and so a lot of times they earn that in what they do, in their achievements, in their, um, in their work.

Kind of achieve earning and achieving that place, that value. And so what will happen sometimes is they will, they can cut corners. They can, um, you know, tell a half truth to get to where they need to be. Um, and, and it's all because there's underlying fear that they're not loved, that they're not valued for who they are, but what they do.

And [00:20:00] so this deceit piece, um, it starts with self deception and then spills out into their life. And sometimes it's really big ways. And sometimes it's just really. Small, um, really silly ways that it comes out, but that's something for threes that they just have to commit themselves to a life of rigorous honesty of checking themselves of like, my, my first and foremost, telling the truth to myself.

And then is what I'm displaying or what I'm telling to the world, um, is that, is that also true? They can, they can oftentimes over promise things. Um, when in reality it's like, it's not that you're being a horrible person, but it's just like, that's just not realistic. Or like, you know, it, that's just not how it's going to play out.

Gonna, gonna pan out. So, um, type fours, they are known as the individualist or the romantic. They are very creative, introspective. They embody authenticity. So fours are, they're gonna be the first to start. Um, and they're, Fours are also very, very in tune with their emotions and with other [00:21:00] people's and they're okay with them.

They're, they're fine with the gamut of gladness, joy, sadness, fear, anger. They're just okay with all the feelings. Whereas some of us. It's just, it's like, shut it down, lock it up. We're not going there. Um, fours are just really okay with it, which is amazing. One thing that I really love about fours and I think is really unique is they're the only type that's able to just bear witness to someone's pain or suffering and just be there with them in it.

They don't need to run away from it. They don't need to try to fix it. They're not trying to medicate it in any way. They just are able to empathize and sit with someone in it, um, which the rest of us, um, Kind of have our things that we jumped to. It's like sevens are going to like, Oh, let's plan a trip.

Let's go do something fun. Um, eights are going to be like, okay, who do I need to go, you know, have it out with, I'll take care of this. Um, you know, twos are like, I'll cook you dinner. Um, but fours are just going to sit there with you in it. Um, so I think 

that's 

Jacqueline: like a great example of like the different like reactions.

Meredith: it's yes. I mean, it is, uh, it's just [00:22:00] how they are. Um, but they, fours can struggle with envy. They can struggle with this. Um, yeah. And really kind of what is underneath this is this desire to to have a meaningful purposeful life. And so when they When they get stuck in the past or they get stuck looking at what's going on in everyone else's life They can forget to be grateful for what they have and they can really slip into this envy that holds them captive while they're While they're seeking to win in reality, it's like, you know, the rest of us look at fours and we're like, you are the ultimate, like unique person of like, and I feel like whatever fours do professionally for work is so rich and it's so unique and meaningful.

Um, like one person that I look at and I'm like, yeah, you're a fourth through and through, um, is Jeremy Cowart. If anyone's familiar with his work as a photographer, if you're not, just do a quick Google search. He's. Photographed all these amazing celebrities and people and his work is just so unique and so creative and it's [00:23:00] it's one of those things that it's like Oh, yeah, that's that's so original.

Um, but fours talk about struggling a lot with this sense of um, just feeling like You know, does my contribution matter? Do I matter? Um, am I unique enough? Am I, you know, am I special? Um, so that's where MB can, can slip in for them. Uh, type fives are known as the investigators or the thinkers, and they are constantly taking in information.

They are usually a little bit more introverted on the quiet side because they're just, they're just Looking and listening, um, to life and taking in all the information. Um, what's really unique about fives is that they, um, they may tell you that they don't have feelings. They do. We all have feelings. But they are really neutral.

It's almost like fives can detach from their feelings. And sometimes that's not great. But sometimes it is, um, that they can detach from them in situations to really observe and really see. See things in a balanced way. Um, they're very, [00:24:00] even very, very calming presence to them. Um, I always say that fives are the people that you want on your trivia night team, because they know all these random pieces of information that you're like, how do you know that?

Why do you know that? They love a good Google rabbit hole more than anyone. Um, they are inquisitive people. They ask open ended questions. Which allows them to be more objective, um, and they really, truly want to listen, and they want to hear, and they want to learn, um. They, what fives can tend to struggle with is avarice, and it's more of, um, like scarcity mindset.

So fives are very, um, they're very keen on risk. on, um, kind of like holding close their resources, whether it's their time, whether it's their skill set. It, money does matter, but it's not, it's not like people, you know, it's not like fives are just stingy when it comes to their money. Um, but they, they can kind of have this scarcity mindset of making sure That they have enough for what they need, that they're not going to be depleted.

[00:25:00] Um, and I always, I talk about fives. Um, their inner, each, each type on the Enneagram has a different level of energy. Some really high energy types are going to be your threes, sevens, eights. Low energy types are going to be nines, fives. And not necessarily low energy, but more of just like, they just have a certain capacity for the day.

And when it's done, it's done. They do not, they cannot rally. They cannot, you know, you don't, you know, It's not like, oh yeah, let's shotgun a red bull and go for another three hours. It's like, no, we're, we're done. We're done for the day. Um, which is good for people like me who need a little bit more balance in their life.

Um, but type fives, yeah, type fives, their energy is just like, it's like a bucket. And it's like, they, they wake up in the morning and they know every activity that's going to require a certain amount of energy from them. And when they get to the end of the day, it's done. And so they, they sometimes, if there's things that come into their day that were not accounted for, that are surprise, you know, things that are taking up bandwidth, they can tend to hoard a little bit [00:26:00] from a resource standpoint, because they just need to make sure that they have enough energy.

And so, um, so that's where the avarice kind of comes in for type fives is this. Um, Yeah, it's just this fear that they're not going to have enough and so the the practice for fives is open handedness of trusting that there's going to be enough for them, for the people that they love, for their needs, for their family's needs, and to trust that.

So yeah, that's type fives. Type sixes are known as the loyalists and I think something that's interesting about sixes, I think I read about this in my book, that there's some Enneagram theories that sixes make up Half the world 50 percent of the world and obviously we're never really gonna know that because that's not that's not like good data But I think it's a really interesting theory and I do think that there's a lot about it that that makes sense And if you dive deeper into sixes, there's there's kind of two presentations They call it a phobic and a counter phobic and I'm not gonna get too deep into that.

But but sixes are they're altruistic. They really want the greatest good for [00:27:00] the greatest number of people. Um, they are obviously very loyal. They're dependable. They're dutiful. They show up, stick it out when other people are like, yeah, I'm jumping ship. Um, I always say that sixes are the people that especially when there's like a big transition or a change in management or an overhaul at your job, they're going to be the ones that stick it out.

They may eventually leave, but they're going to wait until the dust settles. To see how it all shakes out before they don't ship. Um, they're not, they're not really going to be the first ones that are like, yeah, this place is paying more. Let's all go there. Um, they're, they're just, they're not those people.

They're, um, another thing about sixes too. Yes, yes. The, um, six is also, they, they're the ones that if you work with the six, if they're on your team or if you manage one. League time at the end of the meeting for them to ask you questions because they will have questions and they will need you to Be patient and to answer their questions Um, and I think it's I think it's I think they really they are of that for their loyalty and their dependability You like to answer their questions.

Um, they're very [00:28:00] protective of their people Like I already mentioned they're very loyal. They struggle with fear and kind of like anger for type ones fear is not A moral issue. Um, this is just something that is, it's actually like, can save our lives. Um, some in, sometimes in some respects. But what happens to sixes is they hop on this hamster wheel and they just cannot get off.

And it is all the what ifs. Well, what if this, what if that, what if that? And they, what happens with sixes is they don't use their resources. They don't use their brilliant minds. to help them problem solve and work through, they just kind of stay on this cycle. And so then it spins them up into anxiety, they become really paralyzed, they can't act and, um, and in reality, they have all the resources, um, you know, type sixes are the ones that you want to take on a camping trip with you because they've brought everything that you forgot and they have extra batteries and they have extra flashlights and they have all the things like they have plan ABC.

All the way down the line, like you, I think about that often in my life. I'm like, I need to get some more sixes in my [00:29:00] life because I'm just kind of like, yeah, let's go. We'll figure it out. And, um, sixes, sixes really, really, um, can save me in a lot of ways, 

Jacqueline: Wait, Meredith, what are you? 

Meredith: I'm a type eight.

Jacqueline: You're really

interesting. 

Meredith: so, um, yeah, so I'm just kind of like, yeah, let's go, we'll figure it out.

Um, and we usually do, but sixes remind me that you can be a lot more prepared for things. Um, So anyways, that's, that's what Sixes can struggle with is that fear that really, um, really paralyzes them. And it's, it's sad to see when Sixes get into that spiral because they are so smart, they're so resourceful that they, and they really do, I think one of the biggest things for Sixes is encouraging them that it's like, you have the resources, you have the knowledge, you know how to do this, and you've got to be the first one to take that step out of this, out of this cycle.

Um, Type sevens are known as the adventurer or the enthusiast. Uh, they are fun, playful, optimistic. Um, they just see, and this isn't bad, they just see life through rose colored [00:30:00] glasses. And I think a lot of us, we need that sometimes. I have a dear friend who's a seven and she really helps me see the beauty in life when I'm like, this world is so beautiful.

Go to hell in a handbasket and everything's terrible. And she's just over here, um, living her best life always. Um, but they're, they're spontaneous. They're whimsical. They, uh, they just. Yeah, they're, I joke that sevens are the cool kids on the Enneagram. Everyone wants to be a seven. Everyone wants to be friends with the seven.

They're just, they're just so fun. Um, and now I, and I feel like because I talked about how great they are and because I have some, I, I used to wing pretty hard seven too. So, um, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the term wings, but, um, each, you don't have to have a wing, but sometimes I think it helps people realize certain characteristics about them, but a wing type can be either number that sits on, that sits next to your Enneagram type.

So I'm a type 8, which means that my wings could be a 9 or 7. Um, and I think that those, I think in the road back to [00:31:00] you, um, Ian Cron describes it as like, You're a hammer. It's just, are you a roofing hammer or are you like, whatever? I don't really know anything about hammers, but, um, or like, for example, like your fruit, are you, or you're a citrus fruit?

Are you an orange or you're a lemon? Are you a lime? Just kind of like you are your type, but kind of what variation do you show up in the world or what shade of color do you show up? 

Jacqueline: Like for me, like I showed up as like a hundred percent type one and then a hundred percent type seven and like they sit very far from each other. So like.

Meredith: Yes. Well, yes, because type ones and sevens they have a relationship. So each type, um, during stress and security can kind of go to different types. And I talk about this a little bit in I think one of the early chapters in my book.

You'll hear people talk about this in the Enneagram world, say stress and security, healthy, unhealthy, um, and, and I think it's more of like, rather than like good or bad. So for example, as a type eight, I can go to, um, a two in security and five in stress. [00:32:00] Just because I go to a two does not mean that I'm functioning in a really healthy place.

Um, I have looked back at parts of my life and I've been like, man, I was in a like secure place with my husband or with some other relationship, but I was acting really unhealthy. Like I was being the classic two of like, Oh, I know what you need. Let me prescribe this. That's not healthy. Um, but it, but it was in a secure sort of relationship.

Um, Whereas with a 5, I go to a 5 during seasons of stress. That doesn't mean, just because you are stressed doesn't mean you have to act in an unhealthy way. And so, um, for 7s and 1s, they have, they have a relationship along that line in 

stress and security. So that, So when you said that, I was like, she probably is one of those types.

I just wonder which one it is. Um, my friend that's, my friend that's a 7, When she's in a stressful season, she shows up like a hardcore one and, uh, and we'll joke about it, about how it's like, wait, are you a seven or are you actually a one? Um, but so that may be if you've taken a test and you [00:33:00] feel like you have conflicting results, 

that may be kind of what you're seeing. But if you Google it, like stress and security, you can see a diagram and it shows you which types, which types you go to. So, um. But yeah, sevens, they, they, yeah, they're opportunity seekers. They like to keep their options open. What sevens tend to struggle with is, um, gluttony. And this is not in the typical sense of food.

It absolutely can be, but it's more in this sense of, um, they kind of have this mentality of like, more of a good thing is a good thing. There's really not a lot of moderation and, and what that, what that can look like, it's just, it's just too much. It's just this over excessiveness that they can. indulge life in.

They, sevens, they are averse to pain. They're, they're afraid of pain and they, really what's underneath it is they don't want to be stuck in boredom and in pain. And so it's not even the pain that's so scary. It's the idea of being stuck in it. And so a lot of times they're, they're the ones that are [00:34:00] jumping from job to job or they're planning sevens.

Their joke is that they're already planning their next trip while they're on this vacation. So they're not even enjoying this one. Cause you're too busy planning your next one. Um, because they always say it's like they got to keep something. Um, yes, it's, it's the next thing. And I think for them, I always say that for sevens, you know, that little, like on your, um, side mirrors that says objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

Um, I always say for sevens kind of their mantra is like shiny objects are further than they appear because they have this shiny object syndrome of like, Oh, I got to chase the next thing and they think it's just right there. And it's like, if you have, if you have that friend in your life or that spouse, they're like, okay, let's talk about this before we make another job change, or let's be realistic about what this is actually like the time commitment or the cost or all that.

And so. Uh, but it, it is all like if you go back and look at all these types, they're, um, kind of their shadow side, it's really attached to these core fears or. Um, or these kind of, yeah, really core fears in their life of things that they want to avoid or things that they, [00:35:00] they don't, that they don't want to be true.

Um, so that's, that's what it is for sevens. Uh, type eights are known as the challengers. They are very strong, self confident, uh, they're champions for justice. They're independent, protective, very passionate, um, people. And I have to remind myself in eights that passion is not the same as emotion. And, and sometimes your passion just needs to be turned down a little bit.

And yeah, anyways, they're just, they, they bring a lot of energy. They, they bring a lot of a lot. Um, their, their, uh, shadow side is lust and kind of like gluttony. Lust is not in the typical sense that we think of in terms of like a sexual desire. Um, but it's just this lust for life. It's, and it's similar to sevens.

It's like enough is never enough. They just want more. Um, it's just kind of this general, Energy that they approach life with, um, that it's just a little bit much sometimes and they [00:36:00] just need to take a deep breath and they need to sit back, um, And yeah, but they, but you know, for eight, part of where their energy and their passion comes from is they are seekers of truth and justice.

And so for them, eights are going to call a spade a spade and you're not going to get away. You know, I, I, I, I think it's so funny, like God just knows what he's doing and he's so kind. But the fact that, you know, You know, my husband and I would be paired together. It's now 

like, I mean, what, what a, what, like, what a nightmare for a three to be married to an eight.

And also, like, for me to have someone like him, it's, it, what it is, is I'm like, my God, you knew exactly what we needed to be refined and to

be, to be sanctified is really. It's really it. Um, and now I have all these children and I'm like, Oh my gosh, God, like I see exactly what you needed to like grow in me through them.

And thank you for that. Um, but yeah, so anyways, they, they're, they're driven by truth and they're going to call out [00:37:00] any, anything that they see there's a discrepancy with. Um, and it, and it is good, but a lot of times, um, yeah. It's, they just have to learn to ratchet it down a little bit and the way that they deliver it, or what they're saying is not wrong, but how they deliver it can be a lot softer, um, it can be a lot more just well mannered, um.

We'll, we'll leave it at that. 

Um, yeah, Titan Nines, they are known as the peacemaker or the mediator. They are very easygoing. Um, they have a calming presence. They are true empaths, similar to fours in that sense. And they really, one thing that's unique about the Nines is they genuinely see and understand everyone's perspective, their pain.

Um, and they're, they're supportive of, of each person. Even if they disagree with them, they can be supportive of the person. Uh, they're very loving. They, um, yeah, they just, they understand each person's perspective, which is why they're great mediators. Um, [00:38:00] how this can kind of, Kind of backfire on them is nines can, uh, they can tend to stay in that place of understanding of empathy and not take action when they need to about something.

And some of that is out of fear of disrupting the status quo, the peace, um, And so their, their kind of shadow side is this sloth. And it's not because nines are lazy. Very quick to say, I know, I have a lot of nines in my life and they're extremely hardworking, but there are areas in their life where it's like, Oh, you needed to take action a month ago and sit down with your boss and have this hard conversation or have this tough conversation.

Conversation with a friend who has not been a good friend or share some things with your spouse that have been building up so that you don't carry this resentment and they just kick them off a little further and they're like, Oh, I'll do it tomorrow. I'm, I'm really tired today. Or this week's been really stressful.

I'll do it next week. And they just keep like, they just kind of keep like kicking things off and they never really deal with [00:39:00] issues that are important. And, and the reason that they're important is because It's because nines matter and I think that's, that's what nines, I think sometimes forget at the end of the day, they're, they're busy seeing other people's perspectives and they similar to twos meet a lot of needs, but they forget that they matter and that their voice matters and that if something's hurt their feelings or if something's bothered them or they need to, um, or they need to share something, then that's important.

And that's, it's really, Yeah, it's something that they need to do for themselves. And so that's, that can be where it, where it kind of slips into a shadow side. Because for nines, their virtue is love. And I think some of the, um, one thing that's true about love is that it's, it's an actionable, um, love is actionable.

And so sometimes that action is for other people. They're really great at doing it for other people, but a lot of times that action is for themselves. that is, that's nines and that's kind of a quick overview of all the types.

Jacqueline: Meredith, that was amazing. You are [00:40:00] truly the Enneagram master. Just so you know, I hope people, I'm sure people have told you that 

before, but that was incredible. And I feel like so many listeners right now are probably like, Oh my gosh, like that's me or that's me. So definitely encourage everyone to pick up a copy of your book to really dive into that.

But going back to relationships, Meredith, so you said you were an eight and your husband's a three. I'm so curious, are there Enneagram types that compliment each other? Like what's the ideal Enneagram type for the quote unquote, like perfect romantic relationship, 

Meredith: Yeah. It's funny. I, I am not that, the, that person. Um, Crystal Harden, she actually wrote a book on Enneagram and marriage and it's really good. I think that, um, Jeff and Beth McCord have done some stuff on tight pairings. And I'll say this, I think that the Enneagram is, um, I think it's really good to know these things about yourself, and it's really helpful to do things about other people.

Um, and I think it's also as, um, [00:41:00] I don't want to say it's silly because it's not silly, but, but almost, it's almost as silly and subjective as Marrying someone or being with someone based on their birth order Um, like I joke all the time that my both my parents were firstborns. I'm the second born So I have an older sister.

I married a firstborn and so i'm like I have to act like a firstborn or else I'll never be heard in life. I'll never get a word in edwise. I'll never have my opinion Um, but but like I say that as a joke, but also too it's You know, it's just funny the people that you find yourself in relationships with.

And I think that there's a lot of, um, yeah, I think that there's a lot that if you're a, so I kind of break it down into, um, assertive, dependent, and withdrawn types. So the assertive types are going to be the threes, sevens, and eights. They're very, um, they're bold. They can be sort of a little bit more aggressive, um, just direct, like in what they want, what they're working towards.

The dependent, and I, I. Wish that I had a better word, um, because I think that sometimes people are like, Oh, I don't like the [00:42:00] word. Um, but the same thing, the same way with aggressive, like sometimes it just doesn't sound good, but it just is what it is. Um, but the dependent types are types one, twos, and threes.

They more of see. life through, they, they see it through relationship on a, like a pretty horizontal plane. They can be, they can be assertive, but, um, but not, um, but not quite in the same direct kind of brash way that threes, sevens and eights can be. Um, and then the withdrawn types are four, five and nine.

And it's not that they're conflict averse, but they tend to, they're more of observing the world around them. They see the world as. Um, if like 8s are like taking effect on the world, 4, 5 and 9 are looking at the effect that the world and things have had and deciding how to move forward from there. And so 

anyways, I feel like I'm getting like way into the weeds here.

Um, but I, I think knowing, I think knowing whether you're assertive, dependent or [00:43:00] withdrawn helps. going into a relationship. Um, my husband and I, we're, we're three and an eight. So, you know, we don't have, we don't like scream at each other in our house, but like when we disagree on something, it's pretty like, it's pretty.

Pretty apparent. We're like, you know, I don't even know what he was telling me yesterday, but I told him I was like I disagree with you. And I also feel like the way that you said that was really disrespectful to me 

And then and then we have this little like inner, you know exchange and he was like Well, I'm sorry.

I I'm sorry that you know, it felt disrespectful. I did not intend it that way I'll work on it, you know, my tone my delivery and he was like, this is why I said that and But if you don't agree, then we can do it your way. And you know, whatever. So we worked through it and we like walked away from it and there was no, like, there was no yelling.

There was no screaming. There was no cursing. There was nothing like wrong about it. But I realized I was like, this is. For better or for worse, this is how our children are going to understand that conflict works in our 

house versus, you know, it's like, if you grow up with two parents who are withdrawn, like, something might [00:44:00] happen, mom and dad might go away for five days and then come back later and have this resolution to it, or it may never be seen by the children, um, but anyways, I just, I think that's always interesting in relationships to know, you know, Is it two assertive types?

Is it two withdrawn? Is one assertive and one withdrawn? Because then sometimes interactions can look very, very lopsided. And I'm kind of talking about this in the context of conflict here. Um, but I do think that there's, um, You know, I'll say, I'll say I know a lot of twos and nine pairs and they seem to really complement each other.

A lot of three nine pairs also complement each other. Um, it's funny, I think, I'm trying to think if I know of any three four combinations because that one is a little bit at odds because the threes can be, the threes can be like the shapeshifters and fours are going to like sniff out anything that's inauthentic.

So they'll call them on it pretty quick. Um, I know some, some one in five pairings. That and I'm trying to think who [00:45:00] else a lot of twos and threes. Also, they have like a really nice complementary relationship But yeah, anyways, yeah I I think it's I think to as you as you grow and as I mean I think the the goal and the hope is always that you're growing that you're maturing and Regardless of what you type what type you are hopefully In your growth and maturity, you become a more balanced pair.

Um, and you become just, yeah, just more loving and evolved. 

And, um, and man, I look back at my husband and I, we, um, started dating in high school and I look 

back and I'm like, Oh dear Lord, thank you for the work that you've done in us since high school and college, and even we've been married for 11 years now.

Um, and I just, I think that the more, the more time that you're with someone, and I think that's true of friendships as well, that you have, it's this real Gift of just this evolution and really, um, growth over time that you can look back and you're like, man, I'm so thankful that we're not who we were anymore, and I'm so [00:46:00] thankful for where we've come and, um, and just, and just the, the beauty of, of second chances and growth and, and all that.

So,

Jacqueline: I love that. That's beautiful. Yeah, and I mean, at the heart of it, it's self awareness, right? And I think, like, when we really understand, , whether it's us or someone else in terms of, you know, You know how we perceive something or how we want something to happen or, , flaws that we might have that weren't unaware of.

It helps in our relationships be that romantic or friendships and even in a work setting too. I mean, I'm sure this is incredibly helpful. Um, in a, you know, work setting. I mean, again, my freshman year of college, we had this. Entrepreneurship class, and we had to do the disc assessment. But part of that class was this behavioral component where we all had to share our results with the team.

And it really helped because not only like did we like kind of pinpoint people like, Oh, this is going to be the CEO. Like this is going to be the marketing person, but like we understood how they worked. Right. And 

like through that, it led to just a more effective outcome. Um, because we all understood each other's [00:47:00] strengths and, you know, where we could support 

Meredith: Yes. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, you talked about the self awareness piece, but even here, it's like, what you're getting to is compassion. And that's it. The, um, it's like this, this understanding that we get that it's like, Oh, you're this way, you're that way. This is why you show up in the world. It's like, this is why you're afraid of that.

And when the, when you have understanding, it leads to empathy, which helps you. be compassionate towards someone and the way that they show up in the world and what they're afraid of and why they are the way that they are, which helps you ultimately connect better. Um, and you know, it's like, there's, there's some types that it's like, yeah, I'm just never going to be like that.

That is just so far from my wiring the way that I see the world, but you can still have compassion for it. And that's the gift that any type can have that for any other type and, and what it, the connection that it brings out of that. One thing that I think is really fascinating from a. From like a research level, um, is, and my background is actually in the medical field,

and so I see, I see this, it's so, it's [00:48:00] really, it's crazy, because I'm like, oh my gosh, I get this on a scientific level, but when we feel empathy or compassion for someone, we actually secrete oxytocin, and oxytocin is the bonding hormone, and so we actually feel more connected.

To people when we, when we understand them and we have compassion for them. And you think about that, that it's like, it's a choice whether you want to. Understand and have empathy and compassion for someone. And there are, I mean, we've all had those times in our life that I think that we're. a little walled off or, you know, we, we choose not to for whatever reason, um, because we disagree with someone's beliefs or we disagree with someone's lifestyle or whatever it is, but it's like, you don't have to, I think one thing that really helped me a few years back was when I made this shift in my head and I understood, I was like, I don't have to agree with someone to accept them.

Um, I don't have to agree with their behavior to accept them. And part of that acceptance Um, of reality of a person of whatever it [00:49:00] is, is what helps you understand and have compassion for them. Um, And my husband and I went through a really hard season a few years back where I think that that, that compassion and that empathy piece was the only thing that was connecting us for a while.

But it was like, it was so bad, but it was like, uh, but you could still, even at the worst of it, it's like, I can still choose to have empathy and compassion for you, even though I disagree. And even though this is really destructive, um, and, and the bond that that can create with anyone, which I 

Jacqueline: Yeah. 

So 

Meredith: that it's actually backed by science.

So that's

really cool. 

Jacqueline: Yeah, I love that you have a medical background. When you were like, what did you say, you did forensic science or an investigator?

Meredith: Well, I, yeah. So I, um, two, I kind of do two, two different roles. I work as a critical care transport nurse. So I worked ER, ICU for years. So now I work in EMS, go pick up patients, take them to other hospitals. And then I also work, um, in forensic. So as a sexual assault forensic nurse examiner. So we collect data, um, and then, you know, see patients and there, I said, collect data.

We, we do the [00:50:00] evidence collection, um, see and treat the patients. And then. You know, if there's any sort of judicial proceedings that come out of that where they are for them and testify. And so, yeah, that's kind of my, 

it's kind of my, I tell people that's my, that's my, night job that I do.

Jacqueline: I love that. But it's just like, so funny. Cause you'll tell people like, what's your background?

And then they'll see it's completely unrelated to like what you're 

Meredith: Yeah. But you know what? I, I think that we say that a lot of times. It's totally unrelated, but there's so many skill sets, I

think, that you'll probably transfer over that you'll be like, wow, this was really helpful. I had no idea. And I see that a lot because nursing feels very different than writing and, um, you know, some of the other 

things, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of connecting pieces to it and a lot of overlap.

Jacqueline: for sure. God wastes nothing.

Meredith: That's right. Yes, absolutely. 

Jacqueline: And also to Meredith, one other thing I wanted to talk about. So you touched on this, , and you, you said it so eloquently, but many Christians are skeptical, , of exploring personality. And I actually was really interested.

Meredith: Yeah, I think that I think the first chapter of my book I wrote about this and I'm very clear that I think that the Enneagram is really helpful. I think there's a lot of great tools, but I also think it's like anything else if

you're picking up a book or listening to a podcast more than you're picking up your Bible, that's a problem.

Um, go, go to the word of God. I, but I do think that, you know, we don't look at, um, I mean, there's a whole like Christian self help genre of books that are written. There's podcasts. There's all these things that are helpful tools and adjuncts to point people towards the gospel and also kind of put you Flesh on some of these topics to navigate that it's like I need some resources of how this looks like in my real life And so I think that the Enneagram falls into that category of things that can be that can be really helpful for people navigating their personal spiritual growth and their relationships with others [00:52:00] and also I tell people because I've encountered these people in my time writing and speaking about this that if The Enneagram causes too much of a stumbling block for you then Forget it.

Like 

it is not worth it. And so I know that there's no, there's some, you know, there's, there's people that have come out and said the Enneagram is tied to this and that. And you know, I, we could do a whole podcast on that. I think if you're interested, Tyler Zott, he has a whole course on the origins and it's the most well researched.

course or book that I've seen put together of like, here's, here's where it came from. Here's where this, you know, this came into the equation. This is what this person actually said. This is the follow up. He does, he does a very, very in depth, um, you know, so if you've heard some things and you're like, nah, I'm not, I'm not touching that.

I think it's worth giving, giving this a listen. But I also tell people at the end of the day, I'm like, if it causes you to stumble, then just don't. So don't even touch it. Um, it's just, it's not worth it. But I do think that if you, um, I think if you're willing to, it can uncover a lot. [00:53:00] Um, I think from even, I think for myself, just from a spiritual transformation standpoint, um, the Enneagram has been really, really powerful in it.

And then even, um, the 12 step recovery, um, you know, I think that that's another world and that's not really related to my book in any ways, but, but the way that it connects is I think a lot of. Christians are very skeptical of the 12 step world because it's, you know, it's like loosely tied to religion, but it's not, but you know, it is, but it talks about higher power.

And here's the thing. It's like, I, I think it, I think it's, it's again, if it helps you great, use it. If it doesn't, then don't use it. And so, you know, that's how the Enneagram is. I think a lot of people have found it extremely helpful. Um, and like I said, for myself, from a spiritual transformation point, the Enneagram has helped me really narrow in on those things of like the lust piece for me, I've just, Too much, just, just too much.

Um, it has really helped me trace my anger to [00:54:00] like where it starts before it blows up and gets really red and loud and ugly. It helps me trace to where it starts and to start doing the hard work with God. And so, for me, it's been really fruitful. I've seen a lot of people that it's been really fruitful in their lives.

Jacqueline: Yeah. 

Meredith: And so I do, I do think that there's a place for it, but, you know, like I said, 

if it's a selling block, if it doesn't help you, then just, then don't engage with

Jacqueline: No, I, I love that. And yeah, and I always say, like, you have to be your own kind of researcher, right? If you take something, you pick up a book, like, make sure it aligns with God's word, like, take out your Bible for yourself, and then base it on that, right? Not what the rest of the world is saying. But yeah, I mean, you said it before, but I think becoming aware of our own hurts and needs really softens our hearts when dealing with the hurts and needs of others, and that is The root of the gospel, right?

Forgiveness and love others. Um, so yeah, it's, it's a tool. Um, Meredith, this has been such an amazing conversation. I like just looked at the clock and I was like, Oh my gosh, it's almost one o'clock. Like I could talk to you for another two hours, but I know your beautiful baby [00:55:00] seems to be waking 

up. So I want 

to be 

Meredith: just hanging out here. This is Charlotte. 

Thank you. Her name is 

Jacqueline: you are 

Meredith: She's three weeks.

So she just, she's just a hold me a little girl. So I'm like, yeah, I'll hold you. Cause you won't be, you won't be this little for

long. 

Jacqueline: Charlotte's Enneagram is going to be.

Meredith: I don't know, but you know what she, whatever she is, she's gonna be feisty.

Cause she has two older brothers that

Jacqueline: Yeah, there you 

Meredith: So she's gonna, she's gonna, she's gonna, you

Jacqueline: Aww, 

Meredith: she'll be rough and tumble.

She's 

Jacqueline: I love that. So cute. Meredith, well, again, thank you so much for making time, uh, despite your, 

Meredith: Yes, thank you for having me. This was so fun to be

Jacqueline: yeah, absolutely. So where can listeners get a copy of your book? The Journey Home, 

Meredith: Yeah, it is, um, it's on Amazon, Barnes Noble, um, I think you can get it, like, at Target. com, wherever, wherever books are sold. Um, and, yeah, and then I'm on Instagram, um, You know, I'm not on Instagram as much as I used to be anymore,

uh, because I have three children. So it's like, you know, I think in this season, I like, I, I am like, you know, [00:56:00] I can either have my face in the phone or I can be watching my kids and they're not gonna be this little forever.

So I am on Instagram at Meredith W. Boggs. And then my website is also meredithwboggs. com. There's a lot of resources on there. Please reach out. I'd love to hear from you.

Jacqueline: Wonderful. I'll be linking all of those in the show notes. Um, my last question for you is What 

does being well and strong mean to you?

Meredith: Oh, I love that. Um, I think being well and strong Means I think it's I think it's um, it's not just it's physical. It's spiritual. It's emotional. I think it's It's all those and I honestly think it looks different in every season I'm laughing because my three and a half year old part of our part of our routine is, um, you know, we'll go to the gym every day or we'll work out on our, our garage gym.

And so he obviously haven't been, cause I had a baby three weeks ago 

and he asked me a few days ago, he was like, mom, he was like, let's go to the gym today. And I was like, [00:57:00] well, I was like, we're not going to go today cause you know, where's not, he's like, well, why? We haven't been in a long time. And I said, you're right.

I said, we haven't been a long time. I said, you know, sometimes you just have to take seasons of rest. And I said, you know, You know, Charlotte was just born a few weeks ago, so I'm, I'm in a season of rest right now. I'm not going to work out for a little while. And he like just did not understand that. And it was so funny because I was like, man, I was like, I need to remember that, that sometimes seasons of rest are seasons of growth.

And that there's like, it, it is part of being well and part of being strong is to take seasons of rest. So it's funny having that conversation with him. And then you ask that question. I was like, you

know, rest is a part of that equation. Um, sound of thrust and also physical rest is sometimes part of being well and strong.

So

yeah, I

think it's, I think it's all, all of those things. And that's also how the Enneagram ties into it. It's part of 

the emotional and

Jacqueline: So 

true. It all ties in. Meredith, where are you based? 

Meredith: I'm In Nashville, Nashville,

Jacqueline: gonna say, I'm in, I'm in Greenville, South Carolina, but if you ever needed a babysitter, I would babysit for 

Meredith: Oh my God. 

Jacqueline: your kids sound [00:58:00] like characters.

Meredith: They, they are really,

they're sweet. My, um, I'll tell this one other story on my three year old. He asked me this past week. He said, Mom, he said, when it's time to go to heaven, I'm going to put on my Batman costume and fly up to heaven. Do you think God will like that? And I was like, yes, God will love that.

And I'm like, why don't we think about 

God like this? How sweet.

You know, it's 

just So 

So 

pure. 

Jacqueline: It is. 

Meredith: He was like, well, you can walk up to heaven when it's time. And I was like, yeah, cool.

Jacqueline: okay. God speaks to you through your children, I feel like. 

Meredith: He really, he really does. He really, does. 

It's so sweet. 

Jacqueline: Well, Meredith, you are such a sweetheart. I really look forward to staying in touch with you. I have a feeling we're going to be good friends, but I'll let you know when this goes live. God bless Charlotte, and I hope you enjoy this season of rest.

And yeah, I hope to have you on again at some point.

Meredith: Thank you. Yeah. And please let me know how I can help support you and all the, all the things. And if I'm ever in South Carolina, I'll holler at you.


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Jacqueline Genova

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