How To Be WellnStrong

84: Managing Your Mind | Jo Hargreaves

• Jacqueline Genova • Episode 84

Share episode

I'm so excited to share today's episode with you because it's about a topic I've become very passionate about—integrating therapy with theology. Join me as I sit down with Jo Hargreaves, a psychotherapist, writer, and speaker based in the UK. Jo focuses on the gifts, potential, and purpose of every individual through a holistic approach that looks at spirit, soul, and body. In this episode, Jo and I discuss how to address anxiety with a faith-based approach, how to overcome intrusive thoughts, how to regulate our nervous systems, and how to shift your state at a neurobiological level. 

Suggested Resources:

Send me a text!

This episode is proudly sponsored by: Sizzlefish

Let’s talk about fueling your body with the best nature has to offer. If you’re looking for premium, sustainable seafood delivered straight to your door, you need to check out Sizzlefish! Head to sizzlefish.com and use my code “wellnstrong” at checkout for an exclusive discount on your first order. Trust me, you’re going to taste the difference with Sizzlefish!



Join the WellnStrong mailing list for exclusive content here!

Want more of The How To Be WellnStrong Podcast? Subscribe to the YouTube channel.


Follow Jacqueline:


Jac: [00:00:00] Jo, just to kick it off, I always love asking, uh, my interviewees how you found yourself in this space doing what you are doing.


Jo: Yeah, it's kind of one of those, it's like a short answer of this exact moment. And then there's also like the larger like meta narrative of how God's been at work weaving in and out my story. So I think It all started in terms of like the, the instantaneous moment. I remember, I've always really enjoyed social media and um, I was on Instagram and I was just posting something I think around wellness and wholeness.


And I just felt a Holy Spirit nudge go, what if you gave me some credit for that? It was just like a little internal voice. I thought, okay, huh. So I thought, right, okay, because I'd been, I'd been thinking about this. The more I studied, the more often as we talked about, um, new discoveries, or I'd read stuff, I'd think, that is totally biblical of, [00:01:00] um, you know, the power of gratitude, power of meditation that you've mentioned.


And so definitely Instagram stuff was an instantaneous, why don't you give me some credit? And then I started thinking, why does God get no credit for this stuff? Why when we're, even if we talk about meditation. Where if we look at that, when we meditate, and again, that's kind of a, there's a discrepancy, isn't there, between new age meditation, emptying your mind, becoming at one with the universe.


So, and that's so kind of opposite to the biblical view of filling your mind, fill your mind with scripture, like connect with the one who created the universe and um, and that we realize that as we do so, even our prefrontal cortex, where we do all of us best thinking can become thicker. Um, and when it becomes thicker, um, we're able to, it, it boosts the health of our prefrontal cortex and that's where we do all of our best thinking, we make all our best judgments, we make all our healthiest, holiest decisions and, um, I'm like, that's Psalm 1.


Those who meditate on [00:02:00] the law of the law day and night, you know, and then you go on, there'll be trees like planted by streams, they'll bear fruit. And I think, yeah, how does God get no credit for that? And for this, and that was particularly, um, in lockdown, really, when there was so much chat, lots of times spent time on social media and so much chat about, um, um, about wellness and wholeness and, you know, mental health, going for a mental health walk and, you know, all that kind of stuff.


And I. really began linking it. And I guess the biggest story is for me, um, part of my journey of meeting Jesus got kind of really, did get embroiled in the New Age practices a little bit and the universe and all that kind of stuff. And God very, very clearly before I really encountered Jesus, pulled me away from that stuff.


In fact, I was at university and one of the, um, one of the modules I was studying was magic, mystery, and modernity. I can touch that now. But, um, the practical thing I was to do was to do a spell and, um, [00:03:00] just before I did that, I got really quite poorly with glandular fever and had to go home, went to repeat my second year at university.


And then they, when I did, they weren't doing that module anymore. So I ended up doing a different module where I met an amazing Christian woman and like, um, and that kind of became part of my journey. So that's why I feel really passionate for people who've looked for truth and love and light and you know, all that stuff that sounds good in the new age.


Um, but. Um, realize, and I, I'm seeing more of this in Exodus, particularly from, for women from the New Age, realizing it's, it's empty, hollow, even dark, and um, and just this pursuit of Jesus for truth and light and connection and. goodness. So yeah, there's a small story within a big story.


Jac: I love that Joe so, so much. Yeah. It is really sad too. And I feel like, I mean, that's oftentimes how many people find Jesus, right? It's through exploring all these other, you know, religions and whatnot. And then they actually like find truth, which is beautiful. But yeah, I think it is sad. I mean, even on Instagram too, like I'll be [00:04:00] scrolling sometimes and I'll see posts like the universe has your back.


Right. Or like in conversation with people, and I'm like, But that's pantheism, right? Like God created the universe, right? Like he is not the universe. They're not one in the same. And it's like, how can you relay that in a truthful and loving manner? And again, I, I love that you're able to do that through your work.


Um, but going back to gratitude and mindfulness, Jo, can you talk about how important these two components are in addressing anxiety, right? There are so many, you know, even just from a conventional standpoint, approaches that people, you know, explore for anxiety, anti anxiety medication, and probably some other practices that aren't really sustainable or great for the long run.


Um, but certainly, you know, mindfulness and gratitude are two huge, huge things that I know have personally helped me. 


Jo: Yeah. Yeah. I'd absolutely love to. Um, yeah. Gratitude is huge. And actually, if you get into some narratives around gratitude, um, I had a conversation with [00:05:00] someone the other day where all the usual language of like, Oh, Don't be, um, don't get embroiled in toxic positivity. Don't gaslight my experience. And I'm like, that's not what gratitude is.


Gratitude isn't about gaslighting and saying how you feel doesn't matter. Gratitude works beautifully because your brain is wired for it. because God wired your brain. If you get into the truth of Psalm 139, that you've been knitted together literally. And when you look at just how fantastically you've been knitted together by looking at the human brain, and I'm only just beginning to scratch the surface, I'm by no means an expert in terms of being able to understand it completely.


You know, just one piece of brain tissue the size of a grain of sand has one billion synapses in it. I mean, that's how fearfully and wonderfully made you are. And so you've been, it's amazing, isn't it? So, you've been wired for gratitude and, um, that's not toxic positivity. It's working with your wiring. So, some of the discoveries [00:06:00] now is that when you lean into the practice of gratitude, that actually this reduces, um, anxiety for numerous reasons and mindfulness works with it too, because they help to calm both of those things, um, help to calm down the fear center of the brain.


Um, the amygdala, um, which is Latin for almond, the two almond shaped structures, either side of kind of behind and underneath your ears. And they're like their fear centers. And when we're mindful, when particularly when we're mindful about what we're grateful about, we calm down that fear center and gratitude.


Um, and anxiety. I mean, it's, it's, it's. Both simplistic and profound to say this because there's more than just kind of um a sweeping statement but and yet there's still truth in a sweeping statement that your brain isn't able to be anxious and grateful at the same time. It creates a little tug of war because of the different pathways um in your brain and so when you lean into a practice of gratitude you not only rewire your brain away from anxious [00:07:00] thoughts if you build that as a practice into your life, but you, um, gratitude does things like releasing serotonin, feel good hormone, dopamine, um, uh, the reward hormone, neurotransmitter, oxytocin, you know, the love hormone.


So when you're, when you're great, you're Gratitude, when you're grateful, sorry, it's not just some kind of old spiritual principle of I must be grateful because God tells me to, um, it physicalizes in your actual physical body. So things shift and change in your body and when whole neurobiology changes and you look at 1 don't be anxious about anything, instead be prayer, 


Jac: I was just gonna say that. That was the one verse that just came to mind.


Jo: Rightly, it's, I mean, it's that. And then when you go on in that verse, make your request known to God and then the peace of, uh, peace of Christ. God's all understanding will guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus. And that's exactly what it does, is that it guards your heart, it guards your mind, and we, [00:08:00] um, we submit our thoughts to Jesus.


But you know, even if you're right at the start, and this is the grace of God, you know, because even if you're a staunch atheist, that principle is still going to work in your life, because the grace of God's knitted right into your very. neurobiology at a cellular level. And it's, it's similar with mindfulness and people get nervous about mindfulness because it's kind of quite a new age term, isn't it?


But when you're mindful, again, you calm the fear center, you activate, um, or you come into a different part of your brain, maybe than if you're feeling overwhelmed, anxious, um, and so being mindful. And I think scripture tells us, who are you? Who am I? David says, I think it's David or it's in the Psalms. Who am I that you are mindful?


It's filling your mind with things that are good. True, noble, excellent, praiseworthy, as we read later on in Philippians 4 verse 8. Um, so they're very, very powerful techniques, but they have been twisted, um, and kind of co opted, colonized by, um, secular [00:09:00] culture, pop psychology, new age stuff, but it really is God's design.


Jac: Yeah. I love that so much, Jo. There is this one retreat, um, a former cardiologist, uh, who I went to at MassGen in Boston was telling me about it. I can't remember what it's called. It's in the U. S., Jo, but it's basically like a three day meditative retreat where people go and they just sit in complete silence and I'm like, and she ended up going to it and she was like, yeah, like it was, or no, it was actually 10 days.


I think Joe is pretty extreme, but I'm like, what is like the point of this? And like, what do they tell you to do? And she's like, just. Empty your mind for for 10 days and she's like I had a lot of anxiety in my mind I was like no wonder you had a lot of anxiety. Like I would have a lot of anxiety too, right?


I don't want to empty my mind. I want to fill it like you were saying with with God's truth and you know when I have You know, folks on my show, too, who are even, you know, not Christian, and we discuss meditation. I always like to share that for me, meditation, just like you said, it's filling your mind with [00:10:00] scripture, and I'll pick a verse, I'll meditate on it.


I love the Abide app, um, you know, guided meditations for folks who can't really like sit, in silence or, or whatnot, and it doesn't have to be silence, but, you know, just having something in the background certainly helps, um. And Joe, everything you said certainly will tie into this next question, but something I struggle with a lot, and I've realized the more I talk about it, the more other people share with me that they struggle with it too, are intrusive thoughts, right?


And I know that like, I don't know the exact stat, perhaps you do, but it's like 80 percent or something of the thoughts that we have every day are just like repetitive thoughts. We think the same thing. And from the second I wake up in the morning, I feel like my mind is constantly on replay on something that happened in the past or a concern or a worry about the future.


Um, and you highlighted in one of your posts, this principle of metacognition and the steps of like a thought audit, which I screenshot and saved. And I loved it so much. And I really would love if you [00:11:00] could share, um, with our listeners just, you know, what that process looks like to really stop intrusive thoughts and actually rewire our brains.


Jo: Yeah. I have so much compassion, um, towards people struggling with intrusive thoughts, because I, um, it's less so now, and I wonder if that's because I've, whether there's been some rewiring that's gone on for me. Definitely, definitely that's been part of my story too. So I feel for you. And I know at times, and I've experienced in my own life, thoughts that can come into my head that sometimes can even feel blasphemous or like, really like, where did that come from?


And can make you really question yourself. And one, something I get a bit of kickback on is when I say you are not your thoughts because people will say, but scripture says, as a man thinketh so he is. And I'll say, well, yes, but that doesn't mean that your thoughts are inconsequential. They do have an impact on you, but they're not part of your identity because you think an intrusive thought, it doesn't mean, um, that something bad or wrong about you.


That's not the [00:12:00] defining part of your personality of your identity. Sorry. And our brains do like to, um, play games, I guess. There is that element of, um, that is that element of things can just pop into our head. And also when we do suppress things, I've worked historically, particularly with women who've experienced anger, that when we suppress that, Um, because we're trying to stick to this kind of good girl narrative of I'm a good Christian girl.


And so good Christian girls don't get angry. And so we were suppressing repress anger. It's a bit like a beach ball trying to push a beach ball down underwater that it pops up somewhere else and pop up in an intrusive thought. And that's not always the case. Um, of why sometimes, um, There's stuff going on subconsciously and you mentioned kind of what we often wake up and repeat the same thing.


And it is, it's a high percentage of thoughts that are just kind of on a loop, on repeat. And that's why [00:13:00] metacognition is a real gift from God. And so metacognition is the language that we'd use in kind of therapeutic space or maybe slightly looking at the brain from a scientific point of view. But essentially it points us to the scripture 2 Corinthians 10 5.


Um, 2 Corinthians. 10 chapter 5, yeah. Um, sorry, have I given you the right reference? So 2nd Corinthians, yes, yes, chapter 10 verse 5,


yes. Yeah, making sure I'm not misquoting myself. Um, which talks about taking our thoughts capital and making them obedient to Christ. And what is the good news, and I call it the good news and the God news, is that we're able to do that because of how our brain has been wired.


I think as far as I am aware, I think as far as studies are aware, we're the only thing in all creation that can do that. Um, and it simply means you have the ability to stand outside and witness your own thoughts. So, um, some people might call this consciousness, kind of living in a conscious state. I'd say it's [00:14:00] just living according to God's design.


And, and I think often we can over spiritualize that and make it feel very complex. But for me, it's simple as this. If I'm in the shower and I notice I'm rehearsing an argument and having an argument with somebody or going over something, or, you know, I'm driving and I'm muttering under my breath because I'm, Thinking of something I wish I'd said, you know, five years ago, um, is that actually I tune into that principle where I can stand outside and say, is this healthy?


Is it holy? Is it leading me towards truth? Um, um, again, using that benchmark, true, noble, excellent, praiseworthy, as we read in Philippians four verse eight, or is this bringing health to me? Is this making me holy and whole in my body, soul, and spirit, and then beginning to choose a different thought. that takes work.


I don't want to say, Oh, just, you know, if you haven't used your thoughts, just do that and it will be fine. It takes work. And I'm very, very mindful of being trauma informed as well, that when people have experienced trauma, [00:15:00] um, when people's brains have been wired, according to that, um, it can, it can be a lot of a trickier process, but that doesn't mean it's any less true.


We are able to do. You can stand out and notice your own thoughts and for me that's become, after years of applying that principle, it's become a knee jerk reaction for me now that I'm like, oh gosh, I'm having an argument with my mum from 1989, well no, you know, not that long ago, um, not quite that old, but um, you know, you know, from this, whatever, this is, this is fruitful.


less and realizing actually that when I do have a thought, it's not inconsequential that this is going to impact me. So I can go down that line and I can rehearse that argument, but it's not going to be helpful for me. And one of the best things I've heard, and it's by, I cannot remember his name now, but he's a Welsh theologian, and he died a while ago, but he talks about Often our biggest stresses in life [00:16:00] come from listening to ourselves too much and not talking to ourselves enough.


So not using talk to ourselves and say, this is the truth. This, oh, it's Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones. That's who it is. Um, it's a very brilliant quote. It's quite a long quote, but, um, all about the power of talking to ourself as opposed to listening to ourselves.


Jac: Yeah, that's so true. The first thing I came to mind when you said that is, I think it's so funny because like if my sister, for example, will call me and she'll, you know, be asking if like, I don't know, She's funny that way. Like something will happen and she'll be like, am I okay? And I'm like, Giuliana, like, you're fine.


Like, don't worry. Like, it's not a big deal. But if you flip the tables and if it, or if you turn the tables and if it's me, I would start freaking out, right? And I just like get in this loop in my head. So when you really do step back and talk to yourself and say, okay, this is actually like extreme thinking and this is not true.


it does change, you know, your response to things. But Joe, what does that like tactically look like? So like we have a thought, we stop, we reflect and we say, [00:17:00] okay, is this truth or not truth? And then like actually giving our thoughts to God, like casting, like taking those thoughts captive, like.


What does that look like? And I'll share with you what's been helpful for me. I have two verses, um, that I always go to whenever I'm ruminating on, like, past things or things with my mom, for example. Like, one thing I struggle with is I'm always thinking, did we make the right decision for, like, whatever treatment option, you know, she did in the past?


And I'm always like, what if we did this or what if we did that? And Right away, I stop myself mid thought, and I'm like, But, God promises to work all things together for her good and his glory. And, God promises that, , he is in control and he is sovereign. So, Again, like, no matter what decisions we've made, I just keep reminding myself of that truth and it just like, I just feel like a weight lifted, you know, off, off of my chest.


So I'm curious, is that kind of the process that you found that, like, you do in terms of making your thoughts captive?


Jo: Yeah, [00:18:00] yeah, I think so. And I love that you're able to do that because sometimes we carry huge responsibilities, don't we, towards people that we love. And it can be, it can be so difficult to know, did we do the right thing? Did we say the right thing? Did we pursue the right choice? It can be so the opposite of freedom.


It can really bind us up in our thinking and really cause us. dis ease, you know, physically, spiritually, emotionally. Um, so I feel for you on that and I'm really, really pleased you're able to do that. I'm really pleased. Yeah. I think for me, I use a bit of a, um, a bit of a framework and I use it with my clients.


And to be honest, I'll be really honest with you. Sometimes I really am able to nail it and sometimes I'm not. I find myself I made a reel on it not that long ago because I realized I'd driven all the way to the supermarket and the whole way I'd been having an argument and 


the other 


Jac: [00:19:00] that one. Yeah.


Jo: was even going on.


And actually I wish I'd been really intentional with that because quite a few people said to me afterwards, Oh, I saw that reel. The argument wasn't with me, was it? Worry. But, um, and so I don't wanna say, oh, you know, I've perfected it. I'm an expert. It's a working process, but I, um, use this, um, I notice it tuning into the noticing.


And for me, that's got to be a bit of a physical awareness as well. Like, am I feeling irritable Often? If I start to feel irritable, I'm like, oh, I, I, um, kind of wanna take my jewelry off. Or like, I, I'm like, oh, I want to take a layer of clothing. Right, I'm irritable, I'm annoyed, or I'm like getting, I'm very short tempered with people around me and I'm very aware of that something, that's a bit of a, um, you know, red light flashing on my dashboard that, you know, something's going on for me.


So, notice it in terms of tuning into the thought, but [00:20:00] also, um, noticing it in terms of what are you feeling like. Maybe you're feeling really hyper aroused and you're feeling really anxious and overwhelmed or hypo aroused, which is feeling really flat and lethargic, don't want to get out of bed. So. Just kind of tune in to yourself, um, name it.


So notice name, the next one is name it. I will actually say out loud, I am caught in a cycle of this thinking. Um, and sometimes it's as simple as that. I'll leave it at that. Or I might even be a bit more, go a bit more, um, complex and. kind of excavate that thought a little bit more and say, I've fallen into people pleasing, I'm trying to keep, um, I've got into some people pleasing thoughts.


I name that this is because X, Y, Z happened in my life. So I'll really kind of expose it. Because when you take something captive, Sometimes it's not. If you think about, um, I don't know, some kind of big TV drama, when a captive's taken, it's not always a gentle thing. Sometimes [00:21:00] you have to wrestle them and like pin them to the ground and take them by the scruff of the neck and say, what do you want?


What is your agenda here? And so sometimes I do that. I just like, right. Okay. I named that I'm doing this because I got a people pleasing narrative to try and keep myself safe because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, um, so sometimes you can go into war with it a little bit in that but then it's to reframe it.


is to just say, Jesus, I, and my brain isn't made to ruminate, you've created my brain to meditate. I'm going to meditate on your truth and I'm just going to have to give this to you. Um, I use it, my eight year old is kind of at that existential crisis part of his life, that when he goes to sleep, he's thinking about life, death, and all of that kind of stuff.


And he's really into football or soccer, as you guys call it. And so with him, we have like, I'll say, look, just bundle up all of these thoughts. Let's say, say them all. Say all of your biggest worries, put them in a big soccer ball,


and we're going to do this. Yeah. And just say, Jesus, my brain can't cope with this.


You're just going to have to help me. And so I [00:22:00] think do what works for you. Sometimes I go to war. Sometimes it's a gentle process. Sometimes I nail it. Sometimes I absolutely but his grace is always sufficient.


Jac: I love that. Joe, are you a journaler?


Jo: Yes. Yes. I


Jac: I have three separate journals actually. 


Jo: love separate 


journals for 


Jac: it's, been, it's been just for different, you know, parts of my life. And I found that one thing. that I really like doing that actually, like, gets the thoughts and the worries out of my mind is writing them down on paper, like, in a prayer journal.


And I literally, like, did this last night, I was like, God, like, these are the things that are on my mind. I'm writing them down and I'm giving them to you. And just, like, the simple act of writing something down, it gets it out of your mind, right? So, like, be that putting those thoughts in a soccer ball, which I love, for your child, or, you know, writing it down in a journal, just being able to express it.


And I think that's why, like, therapy or just a conversation with a friend is so important and it's so cathartic because you're just [00:23:00] getting it out, right? And to what you were saying earlier about like being able to talk to ourselves when we're in the midst of something. I mean, talking to someone in itself, like that's essentially what you're doing is you're talking to yourself to another person.


They're just there to listen to you. Um, so that's been like a really, really helpful practice for me.


Jo: love that you do that. I love it. And there's so many cool, so much cool stuff about journaling. In fact, in fact, that is mindful. You are being intentional, focusing on something. And, um, actually when you, when you journal and get in the habit of writing stuff down, often you begin to see a story or, um, Oh, it's this.


It's when I feel really overwhelmed. Oh, it's actually when I feel really on my own and like everything's my responsibility. And that's because when I was X, Y, Z years old, this happened and we can begin to see a story that we ask God to re story and to rewrite for us. It can be a really beautiful thing.


Jac: So true. And one thing too, Joe, and you [00:24:00] actually had a post on this too, about like the power of remembering and recalling God's faithfulness, um, and how that has a very profound impact on our brains and that like when we intentionally remember past experiences, like. It strengthens neural pathways associated with trust and hope, and I just thought that was so beautiful because that is also a practice that I do, right?


Whenever I'm experiencing, like, whenever I'm experiencing doubt, right? We all have doubt in our lives and, you know, I'm questioning God, like, I don't understand. Like right now what you're doing, this doesn't make sense. I literally take out a journal and I look back and I have just a list, Joe, of all the times that God came through for me.


Right. And I just read that list and it just reminds me of his faithfulness and you know, God says in the Bible too, in so many different passages and stories to remember, right. Remember what he has done. Um, so I'd love if you could also just highlight like. But how, like, what actually happens in our brains, like when we recall God's past [00:25:00] faithfulness from like a science, neuroscience perspective.


Jo: Yeah. Yeah. And again, I love the ed that it's following in kind of this beautiful, rich heritage of, of, um, people right back to the beginning of scripture of where God's like, build a pile of stones, build an altar, have a meal to remember, do this thing. Um, so I think there's, there's things about, um, yeah, regular things that help you remember whether it's writing it down, um.


photographs, whatever it is. So yes, some really powerful things happen. So you talked about, um, what, um, I can't remember what word you use, but essentially, so you talked about neural pathways and because our brains neuroplastic, it doesn't mean it's not fixed entity, it's able to rewire it. in a micro level, but in a macro level as well.


It's really amazing when you get into the kind of Romans 12 to be transformed by the renewing of your mind and how you're really able to do that at a cellular level. Um, so yeah, you, you do, you can [00:26:00] wire your brain, literally wire your brain away, um, from, um, Um, negative reframes and towards, um, trust towards hope.


So it does something. And this is why when we look at spiritual practices, we don't just want to get caught and looking at, um, just thinking that they're just spiritual things that don't really have an impact, that they just, they really, really impact our, as a neurobiological level. So it, you literally rewire.


You can rewire. Um, sorry, I think I talked about in the post as well about, so rewiring towards trust and hope around occupying the prefrontal cortex that I talked about earlier, the part of your brain. And again, it's simplistic to say the prefrontal cortex. There's, um, many, many things going on in our complex brain, but you know, the part of our brain in which we feel more grounded, more able to make.


healthy, holy decisions, like I said. Um, that we, um, activate the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that stores all of our [00:27:00] memories. Um, which means the more we recall a memory, the stronger the memory gets, which I just love. The more we think about God's faithfulness, the more, um, that kind of gets wired into our thinking.


We get dopamine, which is something people have, um, living in the 21st century. you know, we're kind of wired to seek dopamine, aren't we, of like, um, you know, scrolling, kind of quick fixes, but actually we get a dopamine release when we think about God's faithfulness. And we also get dopamine release when we, when we're grateful as well.


So all of these kind of physiological needs that we have for serotonin, for dopamine, that's Often we find in not necessarily healthy ways, um, that we can find them in just really, really, um, healthy ways. So prefrontal cortex engagement, but also amygdala regulation. I talked about that amygdala or amygdalae.


I'm not sure if that's how you say it. in terms of double because we get two. Um, I think it helps regulate the fear center of our brain. It helps us, um, reduce anxiety, um, when we recall [00:28:00] God's faithfulness. So things happen at a spiritual level, but things happen very much at a physical level as well, which is why.


We can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, um, when we're looking at the holistic nature of us and think, oh, it's all spiritual principles, it's nothing to do with our body. God's made our body with care and has knitted it in such a beautiful, profound way. And yeah, so neuroplasticity, which is essentially faith reinforcement over time.


You wire yourself to, um, be able to recall his faithfulness again and again. And, um, I just find that incredibly beautiful principle. Mm.


Jac: No, I do as well. And speaking of things happening, Jo, you also talk about the power of words, right? And the Bible says life and death is in the power of the tongue. And you know that when we speak, we activate these neurons in our brain and how words can influence our thoughts and our emotions. Um. Yeah.


Yeah. I'm so curious, are affirmations a part of your daily practice?


Jo: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't get up and go and [00:29:00] stand in the mirror and tell myself, um, you know, these things. Um, you know, I don't have, I, I always tell you what, when, when I, um, first met Jesus, I did write down scripture and put them all over my room. Um, I did. Um, I don't do that so much anymore. Um, they are, I definitely wire god's what God says very much into my thinking, very much into my day.


Affirmations are an interesting thing because just saying positive affirmations can work. I mean, it can make you feel better, but only because it's hijacking God's design. God's design is that we speak truth over ourselves. And so if that is, you know, looking in the mirror and getting up and saying, you know, I'm brilliant.


I'm going to go for it today. Whatever it might be like so called secular affirmations, they will still work because of how the grace of how God's wired you. Um, because also they affect your confirmation bias. Your confirmation bias is essentially your brain always looks for evidence of what [00:30:00] you've already told it to be true.


So if you're telling yourself things that are, um, you know, positive, or even better if you're telling yourself things that are biblically true, your brain will then get to work. So if I'm saying I'm so loved, I am the head, not the tail, God's never going to leave me, never going to forsake me, that's going to impact everything.


The way I do my shopping, the way I respond to my emails, or particularly the way I receive my emails, the way I the way people speak to me. Um, so yeah, your words are incredibly powerful. Um, and God's word is, um, sharper than a double edged sword, isn't it? It's living, it's active, it comes to work in our lives.


So, um, I don't want to dumb it down by saying, oh, any old affirmations work. I'm just saying God's wired us so beautifully, that absolutely. You know, words will work in general, though I will just say that you, affirmations can be again, particularly difficult for people that have experienced [00:31:00] trauma, um, to people who might maybe even live with a level of neurodivergence.


And I think that's an interesting conversation, isn't it? In terms of, I'm not sure I'm really into the kind of, this is neurotypical, this is neurodivergent. I think it's way more nuanced than that. Um, essentially you can't trick your brain into believing it's um. believing something it doesn't believe. So if you have a deep thought that you're completely unlovable and that there's something inherently wrong with you, standing in front of a mirror every day and going, I'm loved, I'm loved, I'm loved.


It might help a little bit because of neuroplasticity, but that's where we need to go to work with the deep, deep thought that, um, we need to, um, take that thought captive and do some work and some curiosity around why do I think this and allowing God to, to work with the deep thought. So I don't want people to say, Oh, I've done my affirmations every year for 10 years and nothing's changed.


That, that might even be the case, but then let's go a bit deeper as to why you think the way you do. Does 


Jac: [00:32:00] Yeah. No, absolutely. I was just trying to look up the, the name of one book. So my aunt, um, Marianne, who you remind me of, you would absolutely love her. She has just been an incredible spiritual mentor, um, for me. She's like a second mom to me. But she gave me, um, this book and I have to find the name of it.


I'll link it in the show notes, but it's basically just affirmations, like biblical affirmations to speak over yourself. I finally picked it up one day and I started reading through it and I was like, These are so so powerful and depending upon how I'm feeling like there's an affirmation for like emotional health or joy or faith or and it's just it's beautiful and what it did Joe Is it just a like help me to actually memorize like scripture passages, right?


and be you know, just like We've been talking about this whole conversation just ingrained in your subconscious like truth


Jo: Yes.


Jac: So I I love those and to your point. Yeah, biblical affirmations and then regular secular affirmations are very very different And there's [00:33:00] also another book. I don't know if you're familiar with Margaret Feinberg 


She wrote a book called


you you would also Yeah, you would love her as well.


Um, I'd love I'm trying to get her on my show as well, but she wrote um, a book called more power to you. Um, and it's basically just again, like declarations to, to break free from fear. Um, and it's based on her story as well, and using biblical affirmations to just, you know, expose false beliefs. you know, rewire your, your mind, but just so many helpful practices.


And I think the beauty is that there are so many, um, and again, God created us all differently. So it's kind of just a matter of trying them and figuring out, you know, which ones work for you. Um, but it's really encouraging to know that. You know, these are things that can actually rewire, uh, and change our thoughts and, and the way we think and even impact our physical health,


Jo: Yeah. Hugely. Hugely. And actually, just as you were talking about that author and those declarations that even just like declaring something, so noticing something and declaring something out will help. It's [00:34:00] almost like a mindful practice because your brain has to be intentional about doing it so it can move you away from that kind of, I'm in the fight, flight, freeze part of my brain.


Fawn. We go into it into kind of a more grounded, um, receptive space where I'm out of survival mode and ready to receive some information. So definitely affirmations work on some, on, on many, many levels. But yes, even if you took all of the neurobiology out of it and just looked at, Oh, I'm going to speak God's truth over me today.


There's something beautiful about that, isn't there?


Jac: Yeah, I love that. You just mentioned those responses though, Joe, and I, I know you also, you know, talk a lot about that. Can you go through what those responses are? Because sometimes, you know, I feel like, I mean, we all experience them, right? But to actually be able to put A name to it will also, I feel like, help us get out of it, right?


Jo: Yeah, absolutely. And I, um, do a lot of work around, it's not your story, it's your stance. So what I mean by this is, I'll use my own personal example of, I could easily throughout [00:35:00] um, history of, um, of my life, written stories or narratives, and I have written stories and narratives about myself of, how am I even a Christian when I can react so angrily?


I just threw this, I just shouted, I just behaved so badly. This is a story about who I am. And realizing, actually, that a lot of our behavior isn't about the story of who we are, it's indicative of the state that we're in. And by state, I mean nervous system state. So many of us, um, followers of Jesus, um, and non followers of Jesus, I'm just saying that for those of us that are Christians, doesn't mean that we're exempt from this at all, um, are dysregulated.


So we feel overwhelmed and when we're dysregulated, when we're fearful, um, uh, this, um, impacts our brain and our brain puts us in survival mode essentially. And again, a simplistic way of saying it, but puts us in survival mode and there's four survival modes that have really been, um, identified. It's fight, as that's one part [00:36:00] of your nervous system.


Actually fight and flight are kind of two sides of the same coin. So fight is, and they're all about protecting ourselves. from threat. Fighters, I am going to, um, protect myself by being angry, by being assertive, by putting things into action, by making things happen. Um, and I, I see kind of the rise and fall of big Christian leaders and I think, oh gosh, I can see this state, this, this, this person's in and I'm not, um, I'm absolutely not, um, saying that they don't need to take responsibility for that, but I'm like, uh, okay, that.


That guy is stuck in a state of fight. Please fight. He's in fight or flight. Oh gosh, look at this leader. He's in total freeze and total shutdown. So fight, flight, kind of two sides of the same coin. I'm going to protect myself by kind of rearing up, being angry, or flight is I getting out of here. I'm uncomfortable.


I need to protect myself by running away. And we've got freeze, which is kind of the shut down part of our nervous system. [00:37:00] Um, it's secular work, but there's a guy called Stephen Porges who does a lot of work on this. It's very interesting to hear, to read his stuff. Um, and yes, flight is very, sorry, freeze is very much I'm shut down.


And I see that a lot with people, where people are like, I'm numb. I'm just totally numb. I'm going through the motions. motions doesn't mean that you can't be highly productive. A lot of CEOs, a lot of pastors of huge mega churches, I would still say are in freeze mode. So very physically active on the outside, but on the inside, I'm totally numb, totally shut down, going through the motions.


And I have just this little interesting theory then that when people make big moral failures often, um, pertaining to the opposite sex is because they've been in freeze mode so much, they're totally numb and shut down. And suddenly something comes along that. activates some kind of interest, takes them out of freeze mode, and then they feel like, oh, okay, something, this, this is amazing, um, and make a moral, a moral failure.


I can just see the trajectory, yeah, of like, oh, I'm so shut down, um, [00:38:00] oh gosh, wow, something's taking me out of the shutdown thing, the shutdown state, um, I must pursue this at all costs. Um, and again, this isn't about letting people off the hook with anything other than grace. This is just about recognizing often we're like, this is a story of this person.


And I'm like, Hmm, actually it's the state of this person. And um, fawn as well as an interesting one. It's about I'll protect myself by that's a kind of blended combination of, um, the previous ones of I'll protect myself by trying to keep everyone happy. If I can keep everybody happy, um, if I can. put myself at the bottom of the list and make sure you're okay and you're okay, you're, you're happy with me, you're not crossed with me, then I'll be safe.


So fight, flight, freeze, fawn. And, um, there's just this lovely phrase. I'm not, I can't even remember if I made it up, you know, or whether I read it somewhere else, I use it so often, um, saying, uh, I say you need to change your state before you change your story. So many like, I just need to change my story. I need my life to be different without ever addressing our [00:39:00] state.


And the very beautiful bit of research is that when we're in a fear state, the very thing that we need, um, to help shift us out of that is a loving. grounded, non changing, safe presence. And I'm like, well, for me, that's Christ. Because if it's, if you have to look to your own life for that, so many of us are absolutely, um, we're in trouble, aren't we?


Because we think, well, we don't have that in our lives. Um, I mean, that's a terrible kind of sentence to put over people. You'll only be regulated if you're surrounded by people who are non changing, loving. predictable, caring, unconditionally loving. Not many people have that in their experience, but how beautiful when you can say every single person has that available to them.


Lift your eyes, as it tells us in Colossians 3, lift your eyes to the living Christ, the one who's the lover of your soul, the lifter of your head, the one who never changes, the one who loves you unconditionally, the one whose just very name is a safe refuge that you can run into, then that can begin to [00:40:00] shift our nervous system so we can change our state.


Jac: Wow. That's incredibly fascinating. I'm so curious, too, Jo. Like, have you noticed any, I guess, relationship between someone's personality and their default, I guess, response setting? So, like, would a perfectionist be more inclined to, like, I don't know, be in the fond stage or like, is there, is there any relationship there?


Jo: Yeah, that's a really good question actually. And anecdotally I do see some of that stuff, but, um, and I, and I guess in my own, in my own life I do that somebody who might be maybe a bit of a type A personality, it's very, um, it makes sense that you kind of go into fight mode and like, right, okay, let's get this done. Um, however, I just think it's what came first, the chicken or the egg, kind of, so, so, that's at play and there's so many things at play with character of like, place in the family, experience, culture, all that kind of thing, and also, we don't just have one, we don't just stay in one [00:41:00] state, we tend to kind of cycle around them a little bit, but I


would say, yeah, yeah, we do, for me, I can find myself, yeah, going into fight, then flight of like, shout, shout, shout, travel.


walk out, slam the door, um, and then maybe into some kind of freeze of like, Oh, I'm totally shut down now. And then how, and having to regulate myself out of that. So yeah, I'm sure all of those things come into play. And this is why I think God has so much grace towards us, you know, cause he's able to zoom out and see the big picture of why we are the way we are.


why we behave the way we do, why I go into fight mode. And I realized this through God's grace, you know, of like, I didn't always feel safe as a child. And so I had emotionally, anyway, um, I, I had to defend myself at certain times. And so that just kind of became a habit for me. Um, I don't. Though I'm realizing, I never thought I went into fawn mode, but, because I didn't, I was always like, [00:42:00] Oh, I'm never, I'm not a people pleaser at all.


But God in his grace has been showing me, Jo, these are all the places you people please. And you don't have to, because you're already safe with me. So I think if we're willing to go on a journey of curiosity, God will show us all the different ways that we react. And I'm sure we all do the same, you know, we 


Jac: Yeah. 


Jo: our own stuff.


Jac: I love that. That's so good. One other question for you, Joe, and this kind of ties into the intrusive thoughts question a bit. So, It's really funny because I feel like, as we get older, right, like, what's those progressive commercials where it's like, don't become your parents, and we basically like, take on kind of, you know, attributes of our parents that we may not want to, and it's really funny because I feel like I've spent my entire life telling my mom, like, mom, stop worrying, like, Don't worry.


And she would always say, you know, it's in her family and her grandfather used to worry all the time. And, and I find myself, Joe, you know, 29 years old and I'm like, I feel like I'm becoming a worry wart.


But I feel like. You [00:43:00] know, to what extent is that genetic versus environmental and how do we actually change that? I mean, we're talking about neuroplasticity and it's beautiful that our, you know, brains are capable of, of changing, but how does one actually like rewire their worry, warrant mentality, right?


To actually just. Um, be able to rest in, in Christ. And again, I feel like we kind of addressed this through some of our other, um, points, but just from a worry perspective, like how would you respond to that?


Jo: Yeah. Yeah, definitely the atmosphere in which you've been brought up in, um, has a huge impact on us. Um, so you've got external factors, but then there are some internal factors actually. And then you get, you get into the discussion about epigenetics and, um, where things get passed down from generation to generation, which again is a very difficult point, isn't it?


You know, from generation to generation. And, um, epigenetics isn't your DNA, but I, would [00:44:00] explain it as it's like Google Translate for your DNA. Um, I know Dr. Caroline Leaf writes about it and switch on your brain and she talks about it being like little padlocks that you can keep closed or you can open them and the thing that closes and opens the padlock is what we decide to do with our thoughts and our mind.


Um, I, this isn't massively my area of expertise. It's not something I've studied personally, um, but I do know, um, the power of epigenetics. Um, so things can get passed down, but the way I'd reframe that, because you can even see that with, I mean, it's being proven, isn't it, in, um, with addictions now, that things externally, if you're brought up in an environment of, um, substance abuse, you've got that external thing going on, which will have a huge impact on you, but also, um, a epigenetic internal thing going on.


But the way I would frame that in a really hopeful way is you might have a predisposition to something. So you might have a predisposition to worry. I talk about, I have a bit of a predisposition to health anxiety very much on my [00:45:00] mum's side. I remember my nana, Um, very much her journey and, um, so there is some kind of predisposition stuff going on, but because of the work of Christ, because of the blood of Christ, because of what Jesus did on the cross, our predisposition does not have to be our predestination.


And when I say predestination, I'm not talking in terms of, you know, Calvinism and, into the theology of that. But I just mean, it doesn't have to be our story. What we've inherited doesn't have to be our story because of the, because of the neuroplasticity, because of our ability to regenerate the way that, and change the way that we think.


Um, and actually every single part of us is able to regenerate actually, when you get into it. brain, there's like every part, I think you have a new liver, like every, I don't know, I look into that. There's some really interesting stuff and for me, I'm like, isn't that just God's grace that's knitted into your very epigenetic level, you know, even, you know, smaller, lower than that.[00:46:00] 


Um. So I, I think, I mean, I don't want that to be like, Oh, don't worry, your predestination is your predisposition. Isn't your predestination. And then kind of not back it up with how do you actually put that? How does the rubber hit the road? How do you actually do that? And again, I think it's being intentional with your thoughts like Dr.


It's work as a lot that as. It's kind of shown that it is the thoughts that unlock the padlocks of the, uh, an epigenetic level. So being mindful of your thoughts and also just be incredibly compassionate towards yourself. I find compassion again, I know, I know somebody who's very big in the kind of, um, new age world who's, who studies and writes on compassion a lot and her stuff's great, but for me it's missing Jesus.


because he's the one who is compassion. I love, I love just looking at that description of God in one of the Psalms that talks about being slow to anger, full abounding in love, full of compassion. And actually, if we can be compassionate to all [00:47:00] of our little predispositions, it just reminds us of our need for God's grace.


Jac: Amen.


Jo: When you find yourself worrying, if you're like, it just makes so much sense that I'm like this, and God understands why I'm like this, and he's got grace towards me, and he's got, um, he's got, um, grace that he's knitted into me at a neurobiological level, and because when we get self critical towards ourself, we then become the very thing that puts ourself into that threat state.


We threaten ourselves.


So when we're compassionate, we move ourselves out of the threat state into a grounded state. So compassion, I think is very underrated and Jesus saw the crowds and had compassion on them. And I think of Jesus sees me and Jesus sees you and Jesus, all of our little predispositions and has compassion on us.


So all the way for me.


Jac: Yeah. I love that. And he knows all of our thoughts and he knows everything we're going to say before we even say it. Right. And that, that has given me so much [00:48:00] comfort too, because whenever I do have a thought and like, it puts me into that. you know, puts me down that path. I think, wait, but God already knew I would have these thoughts, right?


And like, and he's already like come to my aid to help me through it. Um. So that's so beautiful. One other thing too, Jo, I know we're coming up on time, but I'll, I'll try to wrap it up with this. What advice do you have,, for someone who struggles with living in the present, right?


And someone who is constantly ruminating on the future or the past and, we know that Jesus tells us in the Bible, you know, do not be anxious for tomorrow. Each day has enough worries of its own. How do we practically apply that to our daily lives?


Jo: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I think some of the things we've talked about is, and you brought this one up of journaling, um, there's some really cool research around stream of consciousness writing, which essentially is really the principle of journaling, but you write and write and write without taking your paper off the, your pen off the paper.


So you write down everything you're thinking and it's [00:49:00] a really good kind of subconscious processing tool. Holy. Yes. everything that's going on and can, can be very, very helpful to ground you in the moment. I think there are, there are numerous things. So numerous things we've talked about, but maybe haven't talked about so much of creating a sense of safety in your body.


Um, because often when we're not living in the present, it's because subconsciously we don't feel very safe. safe there. It's kind of easier to look backwards because it's a bit like the, um, kind of watching our comfort show on repeat. We know what's going to happen. We know what happened there. We know what they're going to say and they're going to say, and it feels predictable.


Um, so there's something about creating safety and there's ways that we can do that. I mean, I love using scripture for me, reminding myself that God's safe and that he's loving, that he's kind, that he's gracious, um, but also things that create safety in my body is even going for a walk. Um, use, um, the, the term is bilateral stimulation using both [00:50:00] your, anything that uses both the left and right hemisphere of your brain.


And we know that a lot of research around left and right hemisphere has been debunked, but actually there still is a very distinct, in fact, I'm in the middle of really trying to read this very brilliant book at the minute called, um, The Master and His Emissary. That's all about the left and the right, um, uh, hemisphere.


I can't remember the name of the author,


but. Such an interesting book. I got it I think, 


yes, I, yeah, I'll send it to you. Um, but, um, anyway, anything that activates the left and the right hemisphere of the brain. So walking, um, journaling is very powerful, even doing some drawing with both hands. Um, that's why kind of, um, there's that emotional freedom technique that talks about tapping and all that, that only works because it's hijacking God's design.


You know, it's got, it's got no kind of secret power or anything to it. And I think, um, Yeah, I think anything that uses left, right hemisphere, but just, and I'd ask myself the question if I wasn't very present of what am I trying to [00:51:00] avoid? Um, do I feel safe? Do I feel grounded? Do I feel loved? And just doing a bit of work with God on that.


So, um, being mindful of my body, physical body, my soul, my mind, my will and my emotions and my, the spiritual side of me as well. And just asking where can I create safety in every area of my being.


Jac: Yeah, I love that. Joe, I have to go back and listen to this conversation again myself just to take notes because there's so much good stuff here, but I know this is going to encourage and bless many listeners. It certainly has helped me. I'm so grateful for you and all the incredible work you're doing.


I'm going to be closely following you on Instagram because you just have such amazing content. Um, but with that, where can listeners find you?


Jo: Yeah, thank you so much. Um, so yeah, over on Instagram at the Faithfield Therapist, um, I have my website, which is, um, joehargrovestherapy. com, which is where you can get access to webinars. Um, what else is on there? Um, I do webinars every month, actually. I'm doing a [00:52:00] webinar just this week, actually, about internal family systems, that type of therapy, um, but how can we look at it from God's point of view.


Um, so always, I'm always doing webinars. And I have my own podcast, The Faith Filled Therapy Podcast. Um, so yeah, there's various ways, but if you go to Instagram, and Instagram, look in the link tree, and you can find all the, find all the, 


different ways. 


Jac: I love that. I will include the links to all of those in the show notes, um, but my last question for you, Joe, is my favorite one to ask, and that is what does being well and strong mean to you?


Jo: I love that. That's a really lovely question. I think being well and strong, I'm gonna, I'm gonna come back with some scripture that I started off with. 1 Thessalonians 5. 23. I think it's being, or pursuing, being mindful and intentional about health and wholeness in body, soul, and spirit. Because I think, um, yeah, being physically strong isn't enough for me, or just being spiritually strong but physically weak or weak in [00:53:00] my emotions, weak in my mind.


So for me it's that holistic, everything working together, spirit, soul and body and knowing that actually God is on, ready to partner with me in terms of health and wholeness in all of those areas.


Jac: I love that. Joe, that's essentially my mission statement right there, so you nailed it.


Jo: Oh, I love it. Good stuff. That's such a good question as well. I'm gonna um, because actually maybe I gave a bit of a philosophical answer because I think, actually before I came on this I was like, oh it's three o'clock, I'm really tired, I'm gonna quickly eat a chocolate bar and have a cup of tea to give me some energy. So I'm in the process of, uh, I'm in the process, so I don't want to look like, Oh, I've absolutely nailed this. I think, um, first chapter of Philippians really helpful for me, that he who created, who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion. So, um, yes, that is my hope.


Jac: Amen. I love that. Well, Joe, you crushed it. I'm so excited to share this with listeners and I'll let [00:54:00] you know when it goes live.


Jo: Oh, thank you. I've absolutely loved speaking to you. Thanks so much for having me.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Jacqueline Genova

Host